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Tim_Weiman

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2025, 08:53:01 AM »

No one is restoring to what was there 75 years ago. That time has passed.



Almost no one.  I've done it a few times, as close as we possibly could, anyway.  Some jerk-wad is always going to say it isn't perfect, but we've given it our best effort.
Tom, if you are calling me one of those jerk-wads at least quote my entire post - don’t just grab one line that supports your use of a shitty term like that.
The rest of my post pretty much supports your approach. But not every designer is as sympathetic to the OG work, and not every post here is about your work.
Don,


For what it’s worth, I didn’t interpret Tom’s “jerk-wad” comment as directed at you. I think he merely meant he has great respect for the OG and when working on one of their courses wants to be as faithful as possible to what the OG did. He also acknowledged that it is difficult to be perfect in such an effort and his frustration that some observers may not appreciate that.


All that aside, I enjoyed your first post, but wonder if you can clarify one thing:


by “features modernized to meet modern conditioning expectations” do you simply mean contour being taken out of greens because many people think faster greens are better?


Thanks,


Tim
Tim Weiman

Don Mahaffey

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2025, 09:15:35 AM »
Tim,
I mean rebuilding greens to USGA recommendations and adding specialized systems to dry out and heat/cool root zones, and rebuilding bunkers to not catch a drop of water and adding in specialized liners etc. All of that rubs out imperfect nuance.


Even softening fwy/green surround contours to get the ball to stay on short grass with super tight mowing heights


When I think of restoration to a time past, I think of not only features, but overall character of the golf course. These monochromatic perfectly manicured modern renovations seem focused on perfection in conditioning.


I’m an outlier is that I believe there is a conditioning level above perfect mono stands and the hyper maintenance approach which has taken over.   


I don’t know how a club can say they are restoring to an earlier time when the only thing that is the same is the pieces being in the same place.   It’s becoming boring to me seeing all these courses that look the same

Mark_Fine

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2025, 09:24:57 AM »
Tim,
As you and everyone else here knows we are never going to agree on a definitive definition for the restoration of a golf course. There are so many different levels of it. I like to think I’m doing restoration all the time.  Sometimes it occurs in small bits and pieces and sometimes it happens on a much larger scale. When I restore a green to the edge of its original fill pad, it’s restoration. When I find the edges of an old bunker and bring it back to its original size and shape, it’s restoration. When I bring fairway lines back to what we found on an early aerial or to what they were before irrigation was added and trees were planted, that’s restoration.  If we take down trees that weren’t originally there, that’s restoration.  It’s hard to do “pure restoration” because golf courses are living things and they do change on their own whether we like it or not. Also sometimes we just don’t think what was there is worthy of restoration so we change it and try to make improvements to make it better.  I have pointed examples of that out on some of my projects many times in the past.  I might not be working on some of the high profile projects like an Oak Hill or a Winged Foot but that’s fine. That doesn’t mean only those courses are worthy of some level of restoration as many of these others also have interesting history behind them and are part of the restoration movement.  Just because you didn’t completely restore “the entire golf course” to what it once was doesn’t mean you didn’t do any restoration.  As I said to start there are different levels of restoration even within a single project. 

JC Urbina

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2025, 01:01:51 PM »

Don,




I know you are  a busy guy but if you have a chance come and see what we did at Pasatiempo, It is a Restoration of a wonderful piece of design and art that Mackenzie and Hunter created.  It is a restoration to a time past. I hope that you see something New but Old and that is not boring as compared to what you have seen recently.


Yes the grass on the greens is monochromatic as it was in 1929 when Mackenzie and Hunter seeded their cultivars of Bent.  Only time changes the grass cultivars on the greens as you know,  The New Greens at Pasatimepo in 1929 were not seeded with the modeled blend :)


Painstaking research at Pasatiempo and the willingness not to cave into the Modern Look or to flatten out the greens.  The same Task I faced at The Valley Club Of Montecito, Yeamans Hall,  Blind Brook, Rockville Links which is a study into Deverux Emmette like no other, San Francisco Golf Club. White Bear Yacht Club, Sankaty and many others.   Also not being hounded by outside forces to change the look of the golf course for the modern game was a blessing.


Not one hair is out of place at Pasatimepo and The Valley Club, True to every picture ( which was very important, plenty of photo documentation)  we had and Thankfully like every place I have worked, having talented shapers, golf course superintendents  and associates around me made the work even better.   








Nice Post Jeff, Your work with  others and now for yourself speaks  volumes for the passion you have in the business.


 

Ira Fishman

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2025, 01:49:16 PM »
JC,


I loved Pasatiempo when we played it before your most recent work. I hope that we get back.


Where do you stand on the question of “restoring” courses to adapt to modern technology if that means adding/moving bunkers?


Thanks.


Ira

Tim_Weiman

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2025, 01:57:40 PM »

Don,




I know you are  a busy guy but if you have a chance come and see what we did at Pasatiempo, It is a Restoration of a wonderful piece of design and art that Mackenzie and Hunter created.  It is a restoration to a time past. I hope that you see something New but Old and that is not boring as compared to what you have seen recently.


Yes the grass on the greens is monochromatic as it was in 1929 when Mackenzie and Hunter seeded their cultivars of Bent.  Only time changes the grass cultivars on the greens as you know,  The New Greens at Pasatimepo in 1929 were not seeded with the modeled blend :)


Painstaking research at Pasatiempo and the willingness not to cave into the Modern Look or to flatten out the greens.  The same Task I faced at The Valley Club Of Montecito, Yeamans Hall,  Blind Brook, Rockville Links which is a study into Deverux Emmette like no other, San Francisco Golf Club. White Bear Yacht Club, Sankaty and many others.   Also not being hounded by outside forces to change the look of the golf course for the modern game was a blessing.


Not one hair is out of place at Pasatimepo and The Valley Club, True to every picture ( which was very important, plenty of photo documentation)  we had and Thankfully like every place I have worked, having talented shapers, golf course superintendents  and associates around me made the work even better.   








Nice Post Jeff, Your work with  others and now for yourself speaks  volumes for the passion you have in the business.


 


Jim,


Thanks for checking in. I have to ask: how close is the famous 16th at Pasatiempo to what was originally built?


Tim
Tim Weiman

Kyle Harris

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2025, 02:10:51 PM »
Restoration starts with a wrench on either side of a reel mower.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Chris Hughes

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2025, 09:18:30 PM »
 Andrew Green has added Myers Park Country Club to his roster of renovation clients -- work slated to start in 2027.  Not much in the way of details yet but looks like it will be a wall-to-wall makeover.  If there was ever a course that would/should benefit from the fully monty it is MPCC.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2025, 10:26:35 PM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Kyle Harris

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2025, 07:06:52 AM »
Andrew Green has added Myers Park Country Club to his roster of renovation clients -- work slated to start in 2027.  Not much in the way of details yet but looks like it will be a wall-to-wall makeover.  If there was ever a course that would/should benefit from the fully monty it is MPCC.


It’s amazing how decisions made by clubs are so subject to spin. What exactly *needs* to be done at MPCC? It was a pleasant surprise when I played it on a dreary winter day in 2016.


Mountain Lake has been subject to the same rhetorical cycle for almost 25 years now. Just look into the archives on this very site.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

JC Urbina

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2025, 01:11:18 PM »
Ira,




In the case of Pasatiempo, Valley Club, SFGC Yeamans Hall and a few others I did not add bunkers to reflect the modern game.  I was never asked to move bunkers nor did I suggest moving bunkers.  But remember these are clubs that are not trying to play the modern technology bunker roulette game.


Whenever a club asks me to consider moving bunkers I always say, you're just going to have to move them again later.  You can't keep up with the 1%ters.  Their game continues to evolve and just when you got the bunker right?, the next 1% comes along and blows it over, oops start again :). If you really have to add strategy consider adding a tee, they are much cheaper but even that is not an option for most. 


The clubs listed above that I referenced are more than just bunkers, Routing, Greens, Tees and so much more that just the strategy of a bunker.  And if you move bunkers they are a really expensive piece of furniture that you just never get comfortable with, you just keep moving them and adjusting them especially when they are stand alone and not a part of the topography.




Tim,


Please go see and play  the 16th green, it is a pure work of Art.  That Mackenzie guy was one smart dude.  The green now has a partial  punchbowl on the back upper tier on the players right.  The punchbowl mounding was taken out sometime  before the 1980s.  They took it out  and expanded the green to the players right to add a larger putting surface which was contrary to Mackenzies  wishes.


I have been told by long time Pasatimepo players  that the green is absolutely more usable but still has that elevation change  of over 10 feet from back to front. Not being on the right tier is still diabolical. 




No designer in modern times would build that green today and Mackenzie himself would have been laughed at  by today's owners and golf course architect critiques.






The photos we had to work with were priceless.   

Ira Fishman

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #35 on: February 20, 2025, 01:58:06 PM »
Jim,


Thanks so much for responding. Very informative on both questions and notable that such world class courses did not play the “bunker game”.


Ira

Joe Hancock

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2025, 03:30:35 PM »
An often unmentioned aspect of these processes is what goes in the ground, namely irrigation. JC Urbina can confirm this, but a story I tell often (because I am impressed by this) is when we did the work at Yeaman’s, the club chose not to put any irrigation between tees and fairway….because it had always been that way and worked for them just fine. It’s difficult nowadays to find a club that isn’t irrigated wall-to-wall, with Pinehurst #2 being a the most publicized outlier. (Not so sure single row is the answer for most clubs….heck, I’m not so sure PH #2 is really single row in the truest sense


Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mark_Fine

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2025, 07:54:11 PM »
Can someone comment if any bunkers were added or removed or their locations changed from their original spots at the restoration work done at places like Oakmont, East Lake, Wannamoisett, Merion, Baltusrol Lower and Upper, Olympic Club Lake, Pinehurst #2, The California Club, Cherry Hills, Oakland Hills, Seminole, Winged Foot West and East, Lancaster, Olympia Fields, LACC, Oak Hill, Southern Hills, Plainfield, Medinah #3, The Kittansett Club, Milwaukee CC, Aronimink, …?

Did the restoring architects for these courses avoid the bunker roulette game?

Jim,
As you know most of us always try to start with moving or adding tees as that is a much simpler option.  Sometimes there is elasticity to do that and sometimes not.  I rarely worry much or cater to the 1% but try to look after the majority.  Sometimes nothing (we are mostly talking about fairway bunkers here) needs to be moved or doesn’t make sense to move for a variety of reasons but that isn’t always the case.  Even at my home 100 year old Flynn course, more and more high handicappers are complaining that the fairway bunkers only impact them and even the average golfers aren’t impacted by them any more. We have recently added more forward tees which has helped but it is not a panacea. 

One way to think about it is this, if a 100 year old course was designed to be most interesting for the majority of players at that time, should we expect it to offer that same level of interest and enjoyment 100 years later when the game and technology has changed so much since then?  The answer isn’t always an easy one. 

The courses I listed above that have had extensive work done to them are some of the best older designs out there.  How many of them were left alone and nothing but tees were added or moved because they play just as well now for the majority as they did 100 years ago? 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2025, 08:14:39 PM by Mark_Fine »

David Kelly

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2025, 08:03:17 PM »
Can someone comment if any bunkers were added or removed or their locations changed from their original spots at the restoration work done at places like Oakmont, East Lake, Wannamoisett, Merion, Baltusrol Lower and Upper, Olympic Club Lake, Pinehurst #2, The California Club, Cherry Hills, Oakland Hills, Seminole, Winged Foot West and East, Lancaster, Olympia Fields, LACC, Oak Hill, Southern Hills, Plainfield, Medinah #3, The Kittansett Club, Milwaukee CC, Aronimink, …?

The courses I listed above that have had extensive work done to them are some of the best older designs out there.  How many of them were left alone and nothing but tees were added or moved because they play just as well now for the majority as they did 100 years ago? 
Most if not all of those courses required previous work to be corrected or removed so it stands to reason that bunkers were changed, moved or removed.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mark_Fine

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2025, 08:16:04 PM »
David,
Totally agree but couldn’t they have all been “restored” to original locations, etc?

Kalen Braley

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2025, 08:16:18 PM »
I'm not sure if we decided on what "Restoration" is in 2025.  If this thread from a few years back is accurate, the greens were rebuilt to be softened, which is not one of the descriptions I would include in that definition.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70925.0.html

Mark_Fine

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2025, 08:38:32 PM »
Kalen,
Yes that was an interesting old thread.  Doubt we will all ever agree. 

jeffwarne

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2025, 11:17:58 PM »


 Uniform light green bent grass is the white bunker sand of the 2020's....


This....


 and most of the time negates the effect of nearly every dollar of the 20m spent
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jeffrey Stein

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2025, 01:13:14 AM »

Pure restoration, as we have come to see over the last 20 years, is a bit of a myth and has always been highly interpretive (even if armed with aerials, maps, and photographs).


It's not a myth.  It's a story that most architects don't want to follow, because then they won't get any credit for their own ideas.


Tom -I should have known better than to touch the third rail...self promotion, ha!  But I could not resist the chance to talk about our work on the Great Dunes at Jekyll Island because it fits so nicely into this conversation of restoration.  Brian Ross and I have made many decisions about what to restore and how to do it, especially considering the history and evolution of golf on the island.


Just to play off the quote I clipped- My hope is not necessarily to get credit for our own ideas, in a situation like this, but to be recognized as thoughtful architects who will care for special properties, whether that be in an architectural or ecological sense.  The Great Dunes happens to have both! 


Yourself, Jim Urbina, and Gil Hanse have all had the chance to restore whole cloth and have done it admirably well (first hand knowledge)... I simply strive to live up to your standard and hope one day to earn that opportunity.  The Great Dunes is not the Valley Club or Pasatiempo, those are masterworks, well preserved and polished with exceptional conditioning. However, there are these intriguing golf courses like the Great Dunes which have been neglected and architecturally vandalized.  Do they deserve to be restored to greatness (as Travis conceived it)? I believe YES.  Is it 100% original restoration? NO, but still not much is these days. IMHO


Now I'm up way too late and need some rest for the AM...we are in the middle of restoring one of Travis' only remaining oceanside Par 3's  ;)


Ps. Mark- I would love to show you around Brookside I will be there in the Spring & Jim thanks for the kind words as always!




I love the smell of hydroseed in the morning.
www.steingolf.com

Tim_Weiman

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2025, 01:52:56 AM »
Jim Urbina,


Thanks for your response re #16 at Pasatiempo. I have only played the course a couple times but would love to get out there again. Pretty special place, especially #16.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Greg Hohman

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2025, 06:49:49 AM »
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https://amps-research.com/conference/london-heritages/

Abstracts due April 10. June 25-27 conference in Greenwich. Alternatives to in-person: zoom and pre-recorded.
newmonumentsgc.com

Hal Hicks

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2025, 12:16:23 PM »
The folks over at the Fried Egg with an article about "restorations" that's really worth reading:

https://thefriedegg.com/golf-course-restoration-renovation-differences/


Matt,


    Excellent article by Fried Egg!  Thanks for sharing!  This is exactly what I have been saying in my posts recently.  In my
opinion, golf is losing its design features of the classic golf courses every year due to renovation under the guise of restoration.  I think some are now using the word "restorvation" or something like that which may also be accurate.  But it all starts with the power members at these high end private classic clubs.  I call it "legacy" club presidents.  As mentioned in the article, look at all the private clubs that have been "restorvated" in the last 15 years.  Most people don't realize that many of the changes are not at the hands of the architects but direction from the power members.  I definitely experienced that first hand as a golf course superintendent!

Ben Hollerbach

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2025, 03:11:23 PM »
Can someone comment if any bunkers were added or removed or their locations changed from their original spots at the restoration work done at places like Oakmont, East Lake, Wannamoisett, Merion, Baltusrol Lower and Upper, Olympic Club Lake, Pinehurst #2, The California Club, Cherry Hills, Oakland Hills, Seminole, Winged Foot West and East, Lancaster, Olympia Fields, LACC, Oak Hill, Southern Hills, Plainfield, Medinah #3, The Kittansett Club, Milwaukee CC, Aronimink, …?
Considering many of the holes on the front side at East Lake are not currently playing down their original hole corridors, Yes many bunkers were both added and removed from their original locations during their recent redesign.

Mark_Fine

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2025, 07:27:47 PM »
This definitely isn’t “Groupthink”, ;D but maybe it is time to stop using the word “restoration” and maybe even the word “preservation” of golf courses?  Golf courses are living breathing things.  How many living things are “restored” or “preserved”?  Do we “restore” trees that are planted and grow?  Even consider features like those beautiful blowout bunkers at a place like Sand Hills. C&C found most of those blowouts and incorporated them in their design.  If you look around the perimeters of the course you can see many more but those blowouts are constantly changing and evolving and are not static in any way.  So why should the course be static or ever undergo a “restoration”? 




Right or wrong, my approach has always been to use detailed research to understand the history and evolution of the course in order to guide any recommendations to be done to the design.  Some courses age well/for the better and some don’t.  I wrote an article once that was titled, “What is hiding under all those years of “improvements”? Sometimes what you find is a much better golf course. Think about it, the only or at least main reason to try to “restore” a golf course is because we think what was there originally is better than what is there now.  Why else try to bring back original aspects of the design unless it is just being done for posterity sake.  But that said can we truly restore something that naturally evolves?  Maybe it is time to drop the word restoration altogether because that really isn’t what is happening when it comes to GCA. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2025, 06:07:24 PM by Mark_Fine »

Brett Hochstein

Re: What Does “Restoring” a Golf Course Mean These Days?
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2025, 04:03:10 PM »
The debate with no real answer is back again, as the lines of distinction--at least for golf courses, which are built of soil and covered in living, evolving ecology--are always going to be inherently gray.  Our construction medium (sand/soil) is somewhat fluid and difficult to quantify. Rebuilding a mound to size/shape is not like re-instating a building's window that a plan once showed it to be 96 inches in height and 36 width. Furthermore, we are trying to restore 3 dimensional shapes to a grainy old 2-D photograph, trying to best guess at positioning, size, details, and the shapes and slopes behind the stuff you cannot see.  Unless you are lucky enough to have the clues still on the ground, at the very least some of the finer details will inevitably be guess-work based on site conditions, seemingly obvious tie-ins, and understanding of the architect's other works and other features still present around the course.


So, assuming you have at least some photographic and/or on-the-ground evidence, it really comes down to intent and effort (and time allotted, but that also ties back into intent and effort,  though perhaps moreso from the course/club themselves). How much does the original layout matter to those restoring? The bunker positions? The green contours and sizes? The mowing widths? The aesthetic details? The way the course plays? All questions asked in relation to that version of the course with that past designer you are trying to restore to.  This is the big variable I see, with some restorations set on maximum effort towards the virtuous ideal of pure restoration, and some where the only effort is in how hard you are marketing and touting the word restoration. (And to be fair, not every old course should be fully restored.) The issue I think many have--me included--is when those projects do not really restore at all but then go on endlessly saying they did.


To circle back to the main crux of this version of the debate--agronomy--the main questions that should be asked are "do these conditions restore the shot-types from the original design?"  In some cases, I would think they do.  The contrast for me in playing my evening rounds at Pasatiempo between the two phases of front nine/back nine work was stark. In year one, with the "old" back nine still open, it was harder to hit certain running shots into greens and aim away from the hole, and almost every miss around the green meant a lofted wedge recovery. This past year, with the "new" front nine open, I was hitting all sorts of ground-influenced shots into greens, aiming away from holes to feed a ball in off slopes, and using almost every type of club around the greens. That last part is notable too in that I wasn't just using putter, as I am most wont to do, or wedge, as I was most forced to do on the prior version of the course. Between MacKenzie's side slopes, and the fresher, shorter, firmer turf around greens, the play was often to pitch it toward a certain part of a bank and work it back onto the green. For this you could use anything from a lofted wedge down to a 4 iron. It was a lot of fun, and in my opinion, even though this was fresh new ryegrass with fresh new bent greens, this aspect of the design had been "restored."


This isn't to say that many of the bigger high price tags are achieving this or even setting out to do so. Many are probably aesthetically driven, and some may even be about ego and braggadocio. Numbers, after all, are the simplest and easiest thing to argue about. But the more money you spend, the more scope you have to demo and meddle with something old and original, of which only the best intentions and most careful hands will work to preserve.

"From now on, ask yourself, after every round, if you have more energy than before you began.  'Tis much more important than the score, Michael, much more important than the score."     --John Stark - 'To the Linksland'

http://www.hochsteindesign.com

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