Golf Digest Best New

[Tom_Doak]

The architect told me this, he's a pretty good source.

Sam:


Are you a friend of Chet Williams ?

[Sam Morrow]

The architect told me this, he's a pretty good source.

Sam:


Are you a friend of Chet Williams ?

I don't know him well enough to call him a friend, I think acquaintance is a better description.

[Sean_A]

There were questions about the creeks on The Covey, got confirmation that they are all natural.

We may be having a disagreement on what creek means. I pointed out earlier that anyone can trivially look at aerials of the site from 1995 to 2012 when the main tank is being created. Before that, there are arroyos which again, are everywhere in Texas, but there is only one potential creek that looks like it is could be large enough to carry water continuously, and it's not marked on the Texas waterways maps.

I don't know what else to say. On Google Earth you can see the main tank being built in 2012 with large waterways existing after it that just weren't there before. With the second tank being added in 2017, and extended to add another large waterway in 2022. I have no doubt these were the natural low-lying areas, but this really feels like as "who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes" kind of assertion. You can literally see the treads if heavy machinery in the ground at the site of one of the larger waterways in the 2012 aerial.

Does it matter if the creeks are natural?

When did it become sacrosanct around here that all golf must be as natural as possible, unless…

Ciao

[Ben Sims]

There were questions about the creeks on The Covey, got confirmation that they are all natural.

We may be having a disagreement on what creek means. I pointed out earlier that anyone can trivially look at aerials of the site from 1995 to 2012 when the main tank is being created. Before that, there are arroyos which again, are everywhere in Texas, but there is only one potential creek that looks like it is could be large enough to carry water continuously, and it's not marked on the Texas waterways maps.

I don't know what else to say. On Google Earth you can see the main tank being built in 2012 with large waterways existing after it that just weren't there before. With the second tank being added in 2017, and extended to add another large waterway in 2022. I have no doubt these were the natural low-lying areas, but this really feels like as "who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes" kind of assertion. You can literally see the treads if heavy machinery in the ground at the site of one of the larger waterways in the 2012 aerial.

Does it matter if the creeks are natural?

When did it become sacrosanct around here that all golf must be as natural as possible, unless…

Ciao

Brought a chuckle. Well done.

[Sam Morrow]

I'm with yall, I just know there had been questions so figured I'd answer them for Matt.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Does it matter if the creeks are natural?

Not to me in the slightest.

[Lou_Duran]

I've not met Chet Williams but for many years, I have greatly enjoyed his original and renovation work in Texas.  Based solely on that work, I think that he may be amongst the most unknown, underrated gca working today.  Off the top of my head, Rock Creek, Summit Rock, Whispering Pines, Houston Oaks, and The Covey are all courses I'd gladly play on a regular basis.


Re: The Covey, I've played all the top Texas courses, most in the consensus top 25 numerous times, and I have no issue with its GD selection.  I have also played the vast majority of GD's top 50, but only one other candidate course in the survey.  Based on the magazine's criteria, I'm good with the result.


As to the aspersions made against GD, I can only say that in my nearly 25 total years as a rater/panelist with three different publications, I've not experienced or observed the bad behavior cited.  I know a number of participants in the ratings for the three major publications (GD, GW, and GOLF) and all seem to take their responsibilities seriously.


Texas golf has always gotten a short shrift on this site.  I think a lot has to do with mostly inferior aesthetics, poor soils, rugged terrain, and often unfavorable climate.  Many here were hoping that with the influx of money and top shelf designers, the PGA courses in Frisco would start to reverse the perception and perhaps get a foot in the door in the "world class" category.  Alas, thus far at least, this has not been the case.  Perhaps The Covey will achieve that recognition.  In addition to Chet's fine work and the superintendents' (plural) care and attention to detail, the club has one other trump card: an owner who enjoys golf and has the understanding, means and desire to make it the very best it can be.     

[Andrew Harvie]

I've not met Chet Williams but for many years, I have greatly enjoyed his original and renovation work in Texas.  Based solely on that work, I think that he may be amongst the most unknown, underrated gca working today.  Off the top of my head, Rock Creek, Summit Rock, Whispering Pines, Houston Oaks, and The Covey are all courses I'd gladly play on a regular basis.


Re: The Covey, I've played all the top Texas courses, most in the consensus top 25 numerous times, and I have no issue with its GD selection.  I have also played the vast majority of GD's top 50, but only one other candidate course in the survey.  Based on the magazine's criteria, I'm good with the result.


As to the aspersions made against GD, I can only say that in my nearly 25 total years as a rater/panelist with three different publications, I've not experienced or observed the bad behavior cited.  I know a number of participants in the ratings for the three major publications (GD, GW, and GOLF) and all seem to take their responsibilities seriously.


Texas golf has always gotten a short shrift on this site.  I think a lot has to do with mostly inferior aesthetics, poor soils, rugged terrain, and often unfavorable climate.  Many here were hoping that with the influx of money and top shelf designers, the PGA courses in Frisco would start to reverse the perception and perhaps get a foot in the door in the "world class" category.  Alas, thus far at least, this has not been the case.  Perhaps The Covey will achieve that recognition.  In addition to Chet's fine work and the superintendents' (plural) care and attention to detail, the club has one other trump card: an owner who enjoys golf and has the understanding, means and desire to make it the very best it can be.   

Texas has gotten a bad rep, but this is a big year for Texas with Childress Hall's two courses, Luling's two courses, Loraloma's one course, etc. It's not necessarily Florida levels of booming development, but it's the second-busiest state for new golf courses. Coming soon!

[Ira Fishman]

I've not met Chet Williams but for many years, I have greatly enjoyed his original and renovation work in Texas.  Based solely on that work, I think that he may be amongst the most unknown, underrated gca working today.  Off the top of my head, Rock Creek, Summit Rock, Whispering Pines, Houston Oaks, and The Covey are all courses I'd gladly play on a regular basis.


Re: The Covey, I've played all the top Texas courses, most in the consensus top 25 numerous times, and I have no issue with its GD selection.  I have also played the vast majority of GD's top 50, but only one other candidate course in the survey.  Based on the magazine's criteria, I'm good with the result.


As to the aspersions made against GD, I can only say that in my nearly 25 total years as a rater/panelist with three different publications, I've not experienced or observed the bad behavior cited.  I know a number of participants in the ratings for the three major publications (GD, GW, and GOLF) and all seem to take their responsibilities seriously.


Texas golf has always gotten a short shrift on this site.  I think a lot has to do with mostly inferior aesthetics, poor soils, rugged terrain, and often unfavorable climate.  Many here were hoping that with the influx of money and top shelf designers, the PGA courses in Frisco would start to reverse the perception and perhaps get a foot in the door in the "world class" category.  Alas, thus far at least, this has not been the case.  Perhaps The Covey will achieve that recognition.  In addition to Chet's fine work and the superintendents' (plural) care and attention to detail, the club has one other trump card: an owner who enjoys golf and has the understanding, means and desire to make it the very best it can be.   

Texas has gotten a bad rep, but this is a big year for Texas with Childress Hall's two courses, Luling's two courses, Loraloma's one course, etc. It's not necessarily Florida levels of booming development, but it's the second-busiest state for new golf courses. Coming soon!

Two separate Texas questions:


1. There has not been much word on Red Feather that I have seen. Any views on the course?


2. We have family that recently moved to Houston. What are best public access options? We are glad to drive somewhere for a mini-vacation.


Thanks.

[Andrew Harvie]

I've not met Chet Williams but for many years, I have greatly enjoyed his original and renovation work in Texas.  Based solely on that work, I think that he may be amongst the most unknown, underrated gca working today.  Off the top of my head, Rock Creek, Summit Rock, Whispering Pines, Houston Oaks, and The Covey are all courses I'd gladly play on a regular basis.


Re: The Covey, I've played all the top Texas courses, most in the consensus top 25 numerous times, and I have no issue with its GD selection.  I have also played the vast majority of GD's top 50, but only one other candidate course in the survey.  Based on the magazine's criteria, I'm good with the result.


As to the aspersions made against GD, I can only say that in my nearly 25 total years as a rater/panelist with three different publications, I've not experienced or observed the bad behavior cited.  I know a number of participants in the ratings for the three major publications (GD, GW, and GOLF) and all seem to take their responsibilities seriously.


Texas golf has always gotten a short shrift on this site.  I think a lot has to do with mostly inferior aesthetics, poor soils, rugged terrain, and often unfavorable climate.  Many here were hoping that with the influx of money and top shelf designers, the PGA courses in Frisco would start to reverse the perception and perhaps get a foot in the door in the "world class" category.  Alas, thus far at least, this has not been the case.  Perhaps The Covey will achieve that recognition.  In addition to Chet's fine work and the superintendents' (plural) care and attention to detail, the club has one other trump card: an owner who enjoys golf and has the understanding, means and desire to make it the very best it can be.   

Texas has gotten a bad rep, but this is a big year for Texas with Childress Hall's two courses, Luling's two courses, Loraloma's one course, etc. It's not necessarily Florida levels of booming development, but it's the second-busiest state for new golf courses. Coming soon!

Two separate Texas questions:


1. There has not been much word on Red Feather that I have seen. Any views on the course?


2. We have family that recently moved to Houston. What are best public access options? We are glad to drive somewhere for a mini-vacation.


Thanks.

Good questions on both. I'm organizing a Texas trip right now and hoping to get back to Rawls and Red Feather! I've only played The Woodlands in Texas for a junior event awhile back.

[Sam Morrow]

Ira, feel free to PM me about Houston public golf, pretty sure the book I would write would bore everyone!

[Mike Nuzzo]

Ira
Memorial Park
Not sure why Sam would need to write more

[Sam Morrow]

Ira
Memorial Park
Not sure why Sam would need to write more

Bayou man, Bayou

[Buck Wolter]

Weird that Red Feather has kind of fallen off the map from a buzz perspective especially given the other King/Collins success. I followed the development pretty closely but once it was built it has taken a lower profile, maybe that's the right approach build the buzz, fill the membership and then go on the down low.

[Sam Morrow]

Weird that Red Feather has kind of fallen off the map from a buzz perspective especially given the other King/Collins success. I followed the development pretty closely but once it was built it has taken a lower profile, maybe that's the right approach build the buzz, fill the membership and then go on the down low.

JJ Killeen left and bought a course outside Ft Worth, he was doing much of the social media push on Red Feather.

[Mark Pearce]

I think my favorite hole at The Covey is 17 the par 3, I think it's got a little resemblance of that crazy old English green.

My favorite hole was the 8th... when you get on the tee it looks straight - it is hard for me to like a straight hole... but depending on where the flag is dictates which fairway to use - left fairway or the right.  I was lucky enough to play it 2 days straight and had different pin positions each day.  You can also try to drive the green, but need to hit it perfect else end up in a creek. So many options off the tee.

I went left and had to send it in to Elon Musk to calculate my score.

It won't have been accurate, then.

[Alex_Hunter]

Weird that Red Feather has kind of fallen off the map from a buzz perspective especially given the other King/Collins success. I followed the development pretty closely but once it was built it has taken a lower profile, maybe that's the right approach build the buzz, fill the membership and then go on the down low.

It seems like King/Collins work isn't very attractive unless social media follows it..

[Joe Hancock]

Weird that Red Feather has kind of fallen off the map from a buzz perspective especially given the other King/Collins success. I followed the development pretty closely but once it was built it has taken a lower profile, maybe that's the right approach build the buzz, fill the membership and then go on the down low.

It seems like King/Collins work isn't very attractive unless social media follows it..

You must have missed Sean Arble’s writeup of The Crossroads. Or, maybe I don’t understand what you’re saying…..

[Sean_A]

Weird that Red Feather has kind of fallen off the map from a buzz perspective especially given the other King/Collins success. I followed the development pretty closely but once it was built it has taken a lower profile, maybe that's the right approach build the buzz, fill the membership and then go on the down low.

It seems like King/Collins work isn't very attractive unless social media follows it..

You must have missed Sean Arble’s writeup of The Crossroads. Or, maybe I don’t understand what you’re saying…..

I hadn’t noticed any support for Crossroads as best new blah blah blah. But then most folks don’t seem to care about sensible small footprint golf these days.

Ciao

[Alex_Hunter]

Weird that Red Feather has kind of fallen off the map from a buzz perspective especially given the other King/Collins success. I followed the development pretty closely but once it was built it has taken a lower profile, maybe that's the right approach build the buzz, fill the membership and then go on the down low.

It seems like King/Collins work isn't very attractive unless social media follows it..

You must have missed Sean Arble’s writeup of The Crossroads. Or, maybe I don’t understand what you’re saying…..

I've not seen that. Feel free to share.
I guess what I was saying was, King/Collins work seems very hit or miss solely based on its own social media distribution. Often overhyped by the looks of things.

[Simon Barrington]

Weird that Red Feather has kind of fallen off the map from a buzz perspective especially given the other King/Collins success. I followed the development pretty closely but once it was built it has taken a lower profile, maybe that's the right approach build the buzz, fill the membership and then go on the down low.

It seems like King/Collins work isn't very attractive unless social media follows it..

You must have missed Sean Arble’s writeup of The Crossroads. Or, maybe I don’t understand what you’re saying…..

I've not seen that. Feel free to share.
I guess what I was saying was, King/Collins work seems very hit or miss solely based on its own social media distribution. Often overhyped by the looks of things.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,73429.0.html

Off to grab me some Popcorn...this is a debate I'd like to watch, vicariously...a strong opinion...

[Alex_Hunter]

Thanks for sharing. This looks, fine? I'm sure it's fun to play and honestly it seems like a good use of a small plot of land.


My honest take is that the things you see from King/Collins are too big. There are appear to be few micro factors that contribute to more strategic points of the game. What are the purpose of these massive blow out bunkers integrated with railroad ties when it appears you have to play far out of line to be in them? You just sort of hit the ball wherever and the turned up greens do a majority of the work. I've only played Inness, its again fine... I'll probably catch flak for making an assessment of their body of work based on playing only one of them at this point in time. And that sits fine with me. I can't say I've seen enough variety in design language to think it's anything other than mid-level golf courses, which the world certainly has a place for and there are many of which I love to play. I just don't think the work is as good as the hype implies.


Bring on the boo's?

[Sean_A]

Thanks for sharing. This looks, fine? I'm sure it's fun to play and honestly it seems like a good use of a small plot of land.

My honest take is that the things you see from King/Collins are too big. There are appear to be few micro factors that contribute to more strategic points of the game. What are the purpose of these massive blow out bunkers integrated with railroad ties when it appears you have to play far out of line to be in them? You just sort of hit the ball wherever and the turned up greens do a majority of the work. I've only played Inness, its again fine... I'll probably catch flak for making an assessment of their body of work based on playing only one of them at this point in time. And that sits fine with me. I can't say I've seen enough variety in design language to think it's anything other than mid-level golf courses, which the world certainly has a place for and there are many of which I love to play. I just don't think the work is as good as the hype implies.

Bring on the boo's?

Yer right Alex. The course is fun and a load was achieved on a small property.

I too like micro undulations, but I suspect they are difficult to pull off on a completely man made course. I think loads of spoil from the future marina was used on site. Hence we get large features which act as hole separation and material for greens. So far as the concept goes I think it is well done. There is space to avoid the features, but not so much that they can be ignored. With so much short grass connecting all the holes, the features add texture and height as well. While both are visual elements they are important on this project. I understand if folks disapprove of the features for failing to look natural, but that doesn’t concern me as the entire place is man made and meant to accommodate all golfers, practically speaking.

Of the four courses played on the trip I didn’t play one which I would say is of the natural style…it was quite refreshing and a bit frustrating at times. That’s what we get when archies push the boat out. Not everything will be to everyone’s taste…which in the end is good for design.

Ciao

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