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Matt Schoolfield

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2025, 03:39:15 PM »
I think its a good read,

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67795.0.html

I seem to agree with SL_Solow. Even in its best formulation, the proposition is a form of selection bias.  Nobody would intentionally build an ugly course, so we can’t know how much fun one would be. Beyond that, as SL_Solow points out, the proposition begs the question… if our baseline is golf courses are beautiful, then all courses are beautiful. If you put the old course in the middle of a flat desert, would we say it’s beautiful? I think many would, but I can’t think of a more function-over-form course than one that mostly evolved organically.

Mark_Fine

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2025, 04:35:56 PM »
Thanks for finding that old thread Kalen.  Just shows how we cycle through the same topics here over and over but that is ok as there are many who are seeing this topic for the first time.  Those who have can skip it.


As SL_Solow points out, it is all about how we each think about and define aesthetics.


I just wish Ran would put up a photo of a great ugly golf hole/course on the home page of this website.  Then I might think twice about my feelings about the importance of asthetics.  Even Tom Doak sort of agreed with me  :o :o  as he said he purposely hires people who are good at this  ;)

Tim_Weiman

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2025, 06:27:28 PM »
Thanks for finding that old thread Kalen.  Just shows how we cycle through the same topics here over and over but that is ok as there are many who are seeing this topic for the first time.  Those who have can skip it.


As SL_Solow points out, it is all about how we each think about and define aesthetics.


I just wish Ran would put up a photo of a great ugly golf hole/course on the home page of this website.  Then I might think twice about my feelings about the importance of asthetics.  Even Tom Doak sort of agreed with me  :o :o  as he said he purposely hires people who are good at this  ;)
Mark,


I don’t have a picture but I have long felt the 6th hole at Ballybunion may meet the criteria of being both ugly and great.


As for “ugly”, sure, one might argue that the placement of the green so close to the ocean disqualifies it from the ugly category. But, the tee shot basically offers a view of a trailer park. Not exactly very appealing.


What about “great”? Many times the golfer will face a strong left to right wind that brings OB in play with that short wall sectioning off the trailer park. Knowing that, one might aim left knowing the left rough isn’t a place one is likely to lose a ball, but the penalty becomes a flier lie and exactly what one doesn’t want for the approach shot.


The green appears to have no defense yet it is narrow enough that it can be difficult to hold, especially with a flier lie approach.


Ballybunion’s 6th isn’t famous like, say, the 11th or 15th, but to me it is both ugly and great.


Tim
Tim Weiman

Matt Schoolfield

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2025, 06:49:22 PM »
I think #4 at Mill Valley is a good candidate for a really fun, ugly hole. The par four lets you risk a trivial wedge in if you're willing to play for the narrow strip left by cutting the corner, or you can play one safe down to the middle right for a worse angle and more elevation on the approach.

Suffices to say, it ain't much to look at.

Sven Nilsen

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2025, 11:08:38 AM »
Part of the reason golf exploded in the US was because of the draw of the pastoral setting.  Without that sense of being in nature, and the beauty that entails, part of the game is missing.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2025, 11:19:58 AM »
As a followup, a good read on the "beauty of design."  The links at the end of the article are also worth exploring.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Martin

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2025, 11:52:15 AM »
The beauty angle and how much it means depends on the player. I’ve read many times over the years on this site that only the course itself, meaning the routing and individual holes both alone and as a collection should matter. I guess “beauty” is in the eye of the beholder but I can’t imagine that a course with the ocean or mountains on the perimeter doesn’t have at least a subliminal effect on someone’s impression. I would like to think that the purists could rate/rank/judge Fishers Island the same if it wasn’t on the water but I doubt it. That’s not a knock on the course or the person rendering judgement but rather a nod to human nature.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 11:56:31 AM by Tim Martin »

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2025, 02:48:42 PM »
Are golfers outdoorsmen?

Bruce Katona

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2025, 04:05:08 PM »
Beauty? I bet even on any goat track we can find one diamond in the rough for an Instgram/selfie moment

A nice walk in nature?

A good walk spoiled?


In New York City, there is onlly one borough (Manhattan) that does not have a golf course.  Most are part of the NYC parks system and have been in existance for some time.  There isn't really room to move tees to add length, but most are a fun solid test to play.


Think about this - you live in the outer boroughs and take your clubs on the subway to play.  Yore now out in a parklike green setting with birds, grass, trees, perhaps a pond, enjoying a walk in the fairly fresh air for 5 hours.  The course itself may not be Merion, PV, East Lake, etc, but its golf for all the reasons we enjoy it.


In that, there's inherent beauty. 




"If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung
Would you hear my voice come through the music
Would you hold it near as it were your own....."
Robert Hunter, Jerome Garcia

cary lichtenstein

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2025, 10:37:00 AM »
I'm sure I'm in the minority here. As an artist I enjoy "eye candy" on a golf course very much, I especially like elevated tees as you see the hole from a different perspective.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Ira Fishman

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2025, 11:41:31 AM »
My view (no pun intended) is very close to Shell’s. If the surrounding beauty does not affect how the course plays, then it will contribute to enjoying the day, but it does not affect my judgment about the quality of the architecture. The converse also is true: the surrounding neighborhood/location can be non-descript or unattractive, but if the golf architecture is good, it is good. My most recent experience would be Paraparaumu Beach which is bordered by houses, highway, and commercial development (no beach in sight) but the course is superb.






John Kavanaugh

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2025, 11:48:06 AM »
I had the happiest member in America tell me that his beloved course would not be as great if cell phone towers entered his vision. They did, he is even happier today.


It’s a moop point.

Charlie Goerges

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2025, 12:00:00 PM »
As someone who does a craft, I often find even mundane details to be beautiful if well-executed. Which is to say that all of the course can be beautiful if it's well-executed, regardless of whether it has an ocean view or not. I don't like to think about the beauty of the course as being the whipped cream on top, but for me the beauty isn't only in the landscape. I am happy to say the views are the whipped cream on top though.



Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tim Gavrich

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2025, 01:47:35 PM »
I don’t have a picture but I have long felt the 6th hole at Ballybunion may meet the criteria of being both ugly and great.

As for “ugly”, sure, one might argue that the placement of the green so close to the ocean disqualifies it from the ugly category. But, the tee shot basically offers a view of a trailer park. Not exactly very appealing.
Tim, would you say the same thing about the tee shot at 17 at The Old Course, or the general views of the town as you play back towards it?


I get that a "trailer park" is very different from the Auld Grey Toon, but why should the presence of affordable residences for tourists or locals be a demerit on the 6th hole at Ballybunion or the course in general? I reckon no one sniffs at the presence of the Hamilton Grand and its multi-million-pound residences. I haven't played Ballybunion, but I have played Lahinch, whose second hole plays straight at the town, a dense pack of homes. If anything, the homes add a sense of place: This is a golf course that sits very close to civilization. Would it be a better hole if there were just a hill beyond? I don't think so; in fact, the opposite is more likely.


This is where the discussion of beauty in GCA makes me uneasy. If a subjective judgment of the exterior environment of a golf course can significantly influence judgments of its overall excellence, then I am worried that that tool of evaluation can unfairly disadvantage certain courses.


It's not that the surroundings of a course should never be considered at all. But I think it's important to consider whether we're letting "beauty" create bias.


In terms of on-course features and beauty, I think there is a similar overweighting, especially when it comes to bunkers. This becomes an element of the "groupthink" that has been pondered lately, IMO. Are chunked-out, lacy-edged bunkers inherently more beautiful than what RTJ or Wilson or Muirhead or Fazio or Dye built? My sense is a lot of people would say yes, on the grounds that they look more "natural" than other bunkers. To me, where and how it is situated is much more important.


Stylistic points like that strike me as affirmative choices by the architect(s), which need to be dealt with more than judged. It's an aesthetic corollary to Donald Ross' great line "Here is the golf hole; play it any way you please." A golfer is entitled to an opinion about how something looks, but it doesn't excuse him or her from the task of trying to play the hole as efficiently as possible.


I also think the over-importance of "beauty" in GCA can take a weapon away from an architect's arsenal. There is a lot of potential intrigue in confronting the golfer on a visual level, potentially via intentional dissonance with the surrounding environment. I think this is why I'm drawn to Pete Dye's work - because it often feels that he intentionally built features - esp. bunkers - about which no one would ever gush, "They look like they've been here forever!" Maybe it's because his course sites were seldom naturally gifted, but I think the times where he leaned into strategies like intimidation and confusion have yielded some of the most stimulating situations I've ever been in on golf courses.



TL;DR - I don't care nearly as much whether or not a golf course is beautiful as I do whether or not it is interesting.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Simon Barrington

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2025, 02:11:25 PM »
I don’t have a picture but I have long felt the 6th hole at Ballybunion may meet the criteria of being both ugly and great.

As for “ugly”, sure, one might argue that the placement of the green so close to the ocean disqualifies it from the ugly category. But, the tee shot basically offers a view of a trailer park. Not exactly very appealing.
...I get that a "trailer park" is very different from the Auld Grey Toon, but why should the presence of affordable residences for tourists or locals be a demerit on the 6th hole at Ballybunion or the course in general?...
The presence of a "Caravan Park" (as we call them) is in some circles a distinct requirement for a links course to be considered high quality...

David Kelly

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2025, 04:53:42 PM »
My most recent experience would be Paraparaumu Beach which is bordered by houses, highway, and commercial development (no beach in sight) but the course is superb.
This is one of the first courses I thought of that some people might consider as being ugly, yet I would play it easily 7-3 over the objectively beautiful Kauri Cliffs in the same country.
I agree with Tim Gavrich, beauty helps and may even cover up other deficiencies, but whether the course is interesting or not is what matters most to me.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

John Kavanaugh

Re: How much of golf architecture is about course beauty?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2025, 04:59:45 PM »
Beauty and great weather are free to everyone.  Don’t be too cool to think either ain’t no big deal.

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