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Ben Sims

The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« on: February 07, 2025, 11:48:20 AM »
I share in some others’ frustration at GCA.com of late. We covered so many topics over the years, it’s hard to find anything novel or evolutionary. I think Ran and others have a right to be proud. This site has made a difference. But that also means that in a niche subject like Golf Architecture, interest wanes based upon the sheer similarity of discussions from page to thousandth page.


I think I get what is being said on the other thread, Groupthink is killing us. And whether you agree or disagree that whatever we are discussing in the other thread is a heightened Consensus knowledge or lazy Groupthink, it’s causing staleness. 


Nothing shuts down a discussion like the words “I agree.” In discussing golf courses, that phenomenon is perhaps even more heightened. I like it and this is why and you like it for the same reason…discussion over!


I feel like we can offer more. Particularly as it applies to critical thought about the highest of the high in these rankings. Thoughts?

Kyle Harris

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2025, 12:08:08 PM »
Ben Sims, I agree.

But anything new/novel is often times an uncomfortable public conversation for people that can contribue knowledgeably often times.

I'll start with a thesis:

Golf is overbuilt. And quantity is dominating over quality. And frankly some golf course's existence is only justified because they exist. There is too much OB and Red Stakes and situations that make people feel golf rules are overcomplicated. They do not serve the game.

Do we start a thread about which ten courses you feel need to close and why?

An aside thought is that discussion groups like this go through cycles like many Country Clubs that haven't had much membership turnover for a few years. Nothing is novel because nobody is new to the club. Want to stimulate discussion? Bring in people that maybe are just getting into golf architecture.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 12:13:45 PM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Tom_Doak

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2025, 01:19:47 PM »
Nothing is novel because nobody is new to the club. Want to stimulate discussion? Bring in people that maybe are just getting into golf architecture.


Well, one way to change things up would be if I quit the DG.


I did that for a while a few years ago, didn't de-register but hardly posted at all for 3-4 months.  Mark Fine tried to pick up the slack, which was one of the reasons I came back.  ;)   I remember that a couple of my young associates reported "there isn't much interesting to read anymore".  [Were you one of them?]


One of two things would happen:  either the site fades further, or some new voices come on to take up the space.


I don't feel like I have lost the capacity to add things to the discussion -- witness this week -- but perhaps I would find something productive to do with all the time I freed up.  I've got another book or two to finish, and half a dozen new projects I could say yes to.


I also feel that it would be refreshing to just put my head down and do a bunch of good work and not waste any time promoting it, and see what happens.  I have at least three clients who are on that page right now -- it's some of my most interesting work, and they might all opt out of the Best New rankings. 


I do wonder some times what happened to Ran participating here.  His involvement would certainly perk things back up.

Jeff_Brauer

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2025, 02:08:19 PM »
I agree, too.  Now we have both groupthink and consensus, no?

I still read almost every day or two, but post much less than in the past.  Part of the reason is that I now officially represent 160+ architects instead of my own goofy self, so discretion is the better part of valor, I suppose.  On the other hand, I feel no need to contribute to the regular ratings threads, or talk about courses I know nothing about, of most anything else for that matter, as it has become repetitive in topic content.



I have no real way to judge how this group is perceived out there, but I will not that at this week's superintendents conference only one person brought this site up.  I used to get "atta boys" from several industry folks.  For the record, that was one other architect who still appreciates that I try to bring a dose of common sense to some of the discussions here, based on my definitely "middle class" career as a gca.

For the record, part 2, he acknowledged that Mr. Doak has probably had the greatest career of all time, whereas I have never postulated his career any higher than "one of the great careers."
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2025, 02:19:25 PM »
I agree, too.  Now we have both groupthink and consensus, no?

I still read almost every day or two, but post much less than in the past.  Part of the reason is that I now officially represent 160+ architects instead of my own goofy self, so discretion is the better part of valor, I suppose.  On the other hand, I feel no need to contribute to the regular ratings threads, or talk about courses I know nothing about, of most anything else for that matter, as it has become repetitive in topic content.



I have no real way to judge how this group is perceived out there, but I will not that at this week's superintendents conference only one person brought this site up.  I used to get "atta boys" from several industry folks.  For the record, that was one other architect who still appreciates that I try to bring a dose of common sense to some of the discussions here, based on my definitely "middle class" career as a gca.

For the record, part 2, he acknowledged that Mr. Doak has probably had the greatest career of all time, whereas I have never postulated his career any higher than "one of the great careers."


Jeff,


What other site/information source did anyone bring up?


I don’t buy fully the premise of this thread or your agreeing with it. There have been quite a few new courses (Landmand, Lido, Lost Rail, Old Barnwell, The Covey, Sedge Valley, Tree Farm, etc) that have generated some interesting and valuable discussion. Perhaps too few of us (me included) have played them to contribute. So yes, it would be good to encourage those who have to post.


Ira

Michael Chadwick

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2025, 04:39:29 PM »
There's been a flurry of activity in 2025 on the site so far. The consensus debate has over 100 replies.


Ben, I sided with your thoughts on that thread, on how consensus accommodates contesting opinions, and groupthink is when participants are choosing to agree with something regardless of whether they think it's true or not. Maybe that does happen in rankings. I don't know. Don't care, I suppose.


What I care more about is that there are a good number of people interested, informed, and engaged in golf architecture. There are more content avenues for this topic of interest than arguably ever before. This site and its leadership is just beginning to refresh itself for the future as well.


I'm chiming in here because this topic seems a bit morose given the uptick in participation I'm seeing. You also started a thread last October asking if social media killed GCA.com. Had nothing changed, perhaps that was becoming more evident, but now I see this site in early stages of a welcome rebound.     
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Matt Schoolfield

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2025, 04:41:12 PM »
My take is that: "Science Golf architecture is interesting, and if you don't like it, you can fuck off."

There are so, so many things we can discuss if we care more about things being "interesting" more than the constant prattling about things being the "best."

There is currently a wild comment section in Club TFE reacting to Andy's review of Mammoth Dunes. It's a great comment section because the disagreement gets at the question: what do we want from golf architecture, who is it for, why do we like what we like, etc. Even while I probably mostly agree with Andy's take (and I suspect many here will too), the course sits out there like a rock'em sock'em blockbuster movie that makes millions while being panned by art-house snobs. Why does the course work for most people? Even if many of us insist that the course isn't particularly interesting, what are the themes that are capturing the hearts of the masses, and isn't that in itself interesting? I think it's really unique that Mammoth Dunes somehow illuminates this dichotomy. Groupthink is just waving away that discussion and not having it at all.

I'll be here insisting that every golf course that has a small group of fans is worth talking about, because understanding what those people like is worthwhile.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2025, 04:44:58 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Kevin_Reilly

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2025, 05:40:28 PM »
The older we get, the better the board used to be.


Happens here, happens on nearly every other discussion board or subreddit.


Has been said here for the last 20+ years - fond remembrances of the good old days, which like old Saturday Night Live episodes or even Caddyshack, weren't as good as we remember.


Maybe the board just needs another controversial topic to bring folks out of hiding (or back to the board in the case of Pat Mucci, TE Paul et al).  Something like this:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34272.0.html
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

JMEvensky

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2025, 06:31:30 PM »
The older we get, the better the board used to be.


Happens here, happens on nearly every other discussion board or subreddit.


Has been said here for the last 20+ years - fond remembrances of the good old days, which like old Saturday Night Live episodes or even Caddyshack, weren't as good as we remember.


Maybe the board just needs another controversial topic to bring folks out of hiding (or back to the board in the case of Pat Mucci, TE Paul et al).  Something like this:


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,34272.0.html




Thanks for finding this old thread--some serious hatred was just under the surface (until it was out in the open).


Other than the Pizza Delivery Guy thread, my vote for best of all time.

Ally Mcintosh

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2025, 03:38:31 AM »
The other truly great thread I remember was the Original Biarritz one….


Regards the discussion forum, we’ve lost great philosophical posters who could question things in practical terms (Peter Pallota);….. we’ve lost most of the posters who actually invested time in the study of GCA and history of golf courses outside of just posting their thoughts on here and other places;…. and social media itself has fragmented and stifled discussion and debate in the last 10 years…


The other groupthink thread descended in to it all being about rankings. But - for me - that is just one output of the real groupthink.


That is the lack of depth (and acknowledgement of grey areas) in conversation around the principles that everyone trots out in their sleep (e.g. width, contour, lack of trees and water, strategy, cool looking bunkers etc…). To think that everyone on this board has landed at the same place through some higher knowledge of objective thought and consensus when most of the outside world (i.e. those that have never tuned in to GCA) have landed elsewhere, is naive at best…


To paraphrase Tom on the other thread, he wondered whether he’d done too successful a job in selling his principles and philosophies because he’s like the pied piper with a lot of people following without truly understanding.

Sean_A

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2025, 05:38:57 AM »
The other truly great thread I remember was the Original Biarritz one….


Regards the discussion forum, we’ve lost great philosophical posters who could question things in practical terms (Peter Pallota);….. we’ve lost most of the posters who actually invested time in the study of GCA and history of golf courses outside of just posting their thoughts on here and other places;…. and social media itself has fragmented and stifled discussion and debate in the last 10 years…

The other groupthink thread descended in to it all being about rankings. But - for me - that is just one output of the real groupthink.

That is the lack of depth (and acknowledgement of grey areas) in conversation around the principles that everyone trots out in their sleep (e.g. width, contour, lack of trees and water, strategy, cool looking bunkers etc…). To think that everyone on this board has landed at the same place through some higher knowledge of objective thought and consensus when most of the outside world (i.e. those that have never tuned in to GCA) have landed elsewhere, is naive at best…

To paraphrase Tom on the other thread, he wondered whether he’d done too successful a job in selling his principles and philosophies because he’s like the pied piper with a lot of people following without truly understanding.

Ummm, Doak immediately introduced rankings into that thread? It didn’t descend to rankings.

I admit to being confused about the groupthink deal. To me it is obviously true. We only discuss an incredibly small percentage of courses which sets up groupthink from the getgo. Anything non-groupthink invariably involves why X course should better thought of for whatever reasons. It seems folks don’t like the idea of variety for variety sake. Which I can understand on a personal level for golfers forking out dosh to play. They like what they like and will pay for it.  That thinking runs up the ladder to folks who manage, maintain, build, design and finance courses….except cheap golf 😎.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Niall C

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2025, 07:52:55 AM »
Nothing shuts down a discussion like the words “I agree.” In discussing golf courses, that phenomenon is perhaps even more heightened. I like it and this is why and you like it for the same reason…discussion over!



With respect to the originator of this thread, nothing shuts down a conversation like the words....discussion over  ;)  . There's also nothing wrong with saying "I agree" provided you say why you are agreeing and what you are agreeing about particularly. That in itself can encourage further discussion and consideration of a topic, but simply putting "I agree" or +1 which I've been guilty of in the past does nothing for the discussion. There have been periodic calls on here for like buttons which I've always objected to for the reasons above, and more recently I was pleased that several of us managed to defeat the idea of the upvote/downvote system.


As to topics, I'm one of those history geeks and I to miss some of the discussions we used to have and some of those that participated in them. However whenever we go through a lull and I wish there were more threads of real interest I try to remind myself that I should be starting a thread rather than waiting for someone else to do it. It's up to all of us to keep the discussion going.


Niall 

Michael Felton

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2025, 09:39:00 AM »
We only discuss an incredibly small percentage of courses which sets up groupthink from the getgo.


In fairness, if you played a new course every day it would take you about 45 years to play all the courses in the US. The discussion necessarily has to start from a trimmed down list because ain't no one got time for that. I've played nearly 350 courses, which I suspect is pretty darn high among the general population, although I know there are people here who are far beyond that. The Golf Digest list I think goes down to 200, so to be able to rank those 200 you have to be extremely well traveled already. In that sense I don't think the groupthink is deliberate. I think it's a result of necessity. It's also why we get hidden gems threads and I love your lists for that.

Ben Sims

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2025, 10:17:53 AM »
There's been a flurry of activity in 2025 on the site so far. The consensus debate has over 100 replies.


Ben, I sided with your thoughts on that thread, on how consensus accommodates contesting opinions, and groupthink is when participants are choosing to agree with something regardless of whether they think it's true or not. Maybe that does happen in rankings. I don't know. Don't care, I suppose.


What I care more about is that there are a good number of people interested, informed, and engaged in golf architecture. There are more content avenues for this topic of interest than arguably ever before. This site and its leadership is just beginning to refresh itself for the future as well.


I'm chiming in here because this topic seems a bit morose given the uptick in participation I'm seeing. You also started a thread last October asking if social media killed GCA.com. Had nothing changed, perhaps that was becoming more evident, but now I see this site in early stages of a welcome rebound.   


Thanks Michael. Morose is likely a good word here. I know I’m not alone in the extreme amount of effort I’ve put into golf course architecture enthusiasm over the years. In other parts of the world we’d be called superfans. GCA.com facilitates that fandom in a profound way. I feel like there are some hard-won consensus opinions on this site. But lately some threads/posts from working architects have called those opinions into question. We spent decades on GCA.com and all we got was this lousy tshirt that says GROUPTHINK.  :)

Sean_A

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2025, 10:35:09 AM »
We only discuss an incredibly small percentage of courses which sets up groupthink from the getgo.


In fairness, if you played a new course every day it would take you about 45 years to play all the courses in the US. The discussion necessarily has to start from a trimmed down list because ain't no one got time for that. I've played nearly 350 courses, which I suspect is pretty darn high among the general population, although I know there are people here who are far beyond that. The Golf Digest list I think goes down to 200, so to be able to rank those 200 you have to be extremely well traveled already. In that sense I don't think the groupthink is deliberate. I think it's a result of necessity. It's also why we get hidden gems threads and I love your lists for that.

Exactly, groupthink to a degree is built into any sort of discussion involving so many courses. The number gets trimmed way down by consensus or editorial dictate to mainly courses that will compete for a place in rankings. I said this days ago on the other thread.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 08, 2025, 10:37:08 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

mike_malone

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2025, 10:41:29 AM »
When I am thinking of starting a topic I wonder whether it will create a discussion, invite other points of view, and enable me to share Flynn’s genius at work which forms my thinking on golf course architecture. It doesn’t work much if I have a firm view.


  I need to prepare to bring more than one thought and be ready to defend my position.


Groupthink probably gets people to say things that are agreeable.


I think I was dropped on my head at birth so have always felt it more comfortable to think differently than the crowd.
AKA Mayday

Ben Sims

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2025, 10:50:26 AM »
Thanks for the other replies as well. I started this thread as a sort of comparative response to the other. Ally has been on a warpath for awhile now about how many of what I consider hard-won consensus opinions on GCA are in fact naive and uninformed. Then recently Tom broached the subject as it applies to golf course rankings.


My intention in the OP was to explain how I think it doesn’t matter as it applies to discussion. Whether it’s consensus or groupthink, when a bunch of people are nodding their heads it tends to stifle innovation and creativity. I argued elsewhere how consensus has a better chance of NOT doing that, and in some cases consensus is in fact very hard to get but once earned, is very important.


GCA has meant a great deal to me in my life and has been the primary factor in a profound re-set of my life some 16-ish years ago. Yes, a discussion board has that power. I feel like I have made a significant effort towards learning in a field that was never mine.


Recently it feels like that effort is being marginalized as not thoughtful or smart enough by the people I admire most and that irks me.

John Kirk

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2025, 10:59:55 AM »
First of all, I ended up in this conversation because I felt Sam Morrow's and Paul Jones's opinions about The Covey were not given the respect they deserved.  In the same thread, I objected to the way Derek Duncan's comments were received, so out of curiosity I compared the two Top 100 lists and found they were very similar.  Finally, I entered the conversation because the level of discourse in recent weeks has been more combative and less interesting to me.

I remain unconvinced that "groupthink", which involves some level of coercion, is the primary driver of the similarity between the lists.  I vote for a high degree of intersubjective agreement as the primary reason.  But part of that is the way I think about things.  My education was highly geared towards math and science, and I tend to see answers in black and white terms.

Groupthink is one of those nebulous concepts where it's kind of political.  At what point of zealous advocacy does an argument become coercive and cause people to just go along to get along?  It depends on the receiver of any given message.

If there are 50 or 100 or 200 primary concepts to consider when determining whether golf is interesting, fun, exciting or pretty, they've all been discussed in detail and solid arguments have been made.  That's why the level of agreement is so high.  As far as the site tending to discuss the best courses, it's because they have the features that are most worth discussing.

Although these recent discussions have been reasonably civil, I sense some frustration lying beneath the surface.  It's getting prickly and you can count me among the people who are getting a little pissed.

There are two books about playing golf that were influential in my life.  One was a book my Dad owned called The Nine Bad Shots of Golf, and What to Do About Them.  This is a very old book that discussed the swing flaws that lead to things like topping, hooking, slicing or sclaffing the ball.  The second was a cartoon picture book written with Jack Nicklaus called Jack Nicklaus' Lesson Tee (it has been given other names).  Both books are instructional books.  The Nicklaus book in particular discusses how to play certain shots — long bunker shots, fairway bunker shots, shots with uphill, sidehill and downhill lies, just dozens of situational strategies for playing the game.  Perhaps more than anything, these books shaped my perceptions of golf architecture.

I didn't start playing golf until I was almost out of college, but I caught the golf bug and I worked at it.  I practiced regularly, and as I was able to play in different conditions, I learned to hit the ball high and low.  I learned to curve it left and right.  In short, I learned how to make the game fun for me.  I also learned the concept of casual indifference to results, with fleeting results.  I even broke par a few times.  I put in the work to learn the game and to thereby have a working knowledge of architecture.

I've been long-winded this week, with many long posts.  I'm done on this subject and will read for a while.  Thanks for reading.

I rarely travel and play new courses anymore.  I'm getting old, downsizing my life, and I don't have much to offer this site, only theoretical arguments based on old examples.  But part of the website is about having friends you've made over the years.  I am loyal and I love my friends.

John Kirk

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2025, 11:11:29 AM »

I think I was dropped on my head at birth so have always felt it more comfortable to think differently than the crowd.

You seem to have a healthy appreciation for the uphill approach shot.

Kalen Braley

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2025, 11:20:50 AM »
I would certainly 2nd the arguments that John presented in his last post.  Certainly there are elements of group think here but I mostly ascribe the agreement to like-mindedness on an extremely niche topic.

In fact, given you are here and are contributing puts you in an extremely small group.

Consider that only roughly 10% of the population (at least in the US) golfs. Then factor in that you are one of a very small subset of those who:
1)  Discovered an interest in the architecture/design of the course (which is unique among my personal set of golf friends, as not even one cares about this subject) and/or perhaps work in the biz or adjacent to it.
2)  Sought out more information on the topic via books, magazines, websites, etc.
3)  Found this place and perhaps perused the other sections along with this DG.
4)  Thought enough of it to join the site and start chiming in.

That's an awful lot of upfront work, self-selection, and filtering just to get here...so it certainly seems to follow many of us were already like-minded on arrival.

Ally Mcintosh

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2025, 11:38:53 AM »
Thanks for the other replies as well. I started this thread as a sort of comparative response to the other. Ally has been on a warpath for awhile now about how many of what I consider hard-won consensus opinions on GCA are in fact naive and uninformed. Then recently Tom broached the subject as it applies to golf course rankings.


My intention in the OP was to explain how I think it doesn’t matter as it applies to discussion. Whether it’s consensus or groupthink, when a bunch of people are nodding their heads it tends to stifle innovation and creativity. I argued elsewhere how consensus has a better chance of NOT doing that, and in some cases consensus is in fact very hard to get but once earned, is very important.


GCA has meant a great deal to me in my life and has been the primary factor in a profound re-set of my life some 16-ish years ago. Yes, a discussion board has that power. I feel like I have made a significant effort towards learning in a field that was never mine.


Recently it feels like that effort is being marginalized as not thoughtful or smart enough by the people I admire most and that irks me.


Ben,


I by no means am suggesting that the opinions talked about on here - yours included - are naive and uninformed. But believing that opinion is now consensus is naive. There are a bunch of tropes of GCA that have almost become cliched. 90% of topics and arguments fall back on those tropes of what makes “good architecture”.


The subject is much deeper than that. There are plenty of posters on here - you included again - who consider the nuances and occasionally question the herd but it’s quite rare to hear someone truly break away from the general consensus of this website.


Yet go outside this website and those who are influenced by it and you’ll hear a lot of variety and different opinions, not just by the “non-educated” but also by architects and well travelled golfers. We consider firstly that they are just plain wrong. In my experience, it’s the ones that have thought least about it that are most militant in their opinions, primarily because there is no right or wrong, no one size fits all.


That’s why I mentioned Peter. He was the first to admit his depth of practical knowledge was not huge but he was a thinker who often questioned what appeared to be the consensus opinion. We need more of those. You only need to look at the outrage at the “angles don’t matter” thread to see how closed people’s minds are. Wasn’t helped by Erik’s bedside manner admittedly…



Ira Fishman

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2025, 11:48:52 AM »
Ally,


I heard from Peter just the other day. He is doing very well. He still reads gca.com on occasion and I am sure that he will pleased with your compliments.


Ira

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2025, 12:19:34 PM »
If Max’s Lounge was created today it would be labeled GCA+. How was the groupthink over there?

Bruce Katona

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2025, 12:23:18 PM »
I try to get on here every day/other day to read what is posted and attempt to opine & and add my $0.02 on issues or disussions which strike as a need for me to perhaps offer and slightly different version thought then consensus.


Does play time at the PGA/LPGA level need to become faster....yep......look at American baseball, what the NBS is considering (10 minute quaters) and the poster child for meeting a 2 hour TV window EPL Soccer (45 minute half/15 minute halftime/45 minute half & stoppage time and done in the 2 hour window).


At the local amatuer level, lowerin the height of rough to speed fining wayward shots & having more grass bunkers than sand filled ones speeds play as higher handicap players struggle out of sand but typically get a decent lie out of grass filled ones and are out in 1 shot.........my $0.02 and YMMV & some will disagree.
"If my words did glow with the gold of sunshine
And my tunes were played on the harp unstrung
Would you hear my voice come through the music
Would you hold it near as it were your own....."
Robert Hunter, Jerome Garcia

John Kirk

Re: The Death of Discussion: Consensus vs Groupthink Part 2
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2025, 01:26:17 PM »
Thanks for the other replies as well. I started this thread as a sort of comparative response to the other. Ally has been on a warpath for awhile now about how many of what I consider hard-won consensus opinions on GCA are in fact naive and uninformed. Then recently Tom broached the subject as it applies to golf course rankings.


My intention in the OP was to explain how I think it doesn’t matter as it applies to discussion. Whether it’s consensus or groupthink, when a bunch of people are nodding their heads it tends to stifle innovation and creativity. I argued elsewhere how consensus has a better chance of NOT doing that, and in some cases consensus is in fact very hard to get but once earned, is very important.


GCA has meant a great deal to me in my life and has been the primary factor in a profound re-set of my life some 16-ish years ago. Yes, a discussion board has that power. I feel like I have made a significant effort towards learning in a field that was never mine.


Recently it feels like that effort is being marginalized as not thoughtful or smart enough by the people I admire most and that irks me.


Ben,


I by no means am suggesting that the opinions talked about on here - yours included - are naive and uninformed. But believing that opinion is now consensus is naive. There are a bunch of tropes of GCA that have almost become cliched. 90% of topics and arguments fall back on those tropes of what makes “good architecture”.


The subject is much deeper than that. There are plenty of posters on here - you included again - who consider the nuances and occasionally question the herd but it’s quite rare to hear someone truly break away from the general consensus of this website.


Yet go outside this website and those who are influenced by it and you’ll hear a lot of variety and different opinions, not just by the “non-educated” but also by architects and well travelled golfers. We consider firstly that they are just plain wrong. In my experience, it’s the ones that have thought least about it that are most militant in their opinions, primarily because there is no right or wrong, no one size fits all.


That’s why I mentioned Peter. He was the first to admit his depth of practical knowledge was not huge but he was a thinker who often questioned what appeared to be the consensus opinion. We need more of those. You only need to look at the outrage at the “angles don’t matter” thread to see how closed people’s minds are. Wasn’t helped by Erik’s bedside manner admittedly…


Hi Ally,

I believe the subject being analyzed is far narrower than golf architecture as a whole.

The question is why are the U.S. Top 100 courses list of the two most prominent magazines so similar?  Is it groupthink or consensus?  In an effort to come up with a definitive list to share with their readers, the two publications have selected well-traveled golf analysts to evaluate the best courses, and the average ranking of these evaluations is remarkably similar, despite the fact the two publications use different criteria.

I don't think there's any right or wrong here, it's just strangely homogenous. 


Clearly there is a grand diversity of opinion about golf courses, but in this case we are considering a small subset of golf courses and the opinions of a small group of evaluators.

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