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Andrew Harvie

Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« on: February 04, 2025, 04:37:06 PM »
Apologies if everyone got their copy earlier but I just mine. I immediately flipped to Tom Fazio's interview with Lorne Rubenstein, which I found a really fascinating read on a truly prolific architect. We debate the merits of what he built in here all the time—and rightfully so—but the interview gave a lot of great insight into him, his style, and how he sees his work.


Some highlights, with Lorne in bold & Fazio in regular:


Using the word “minimalism” to describe modern design has become popular, and it’s seen as representative of the more desirable style. You, on the other hand, are known as an earthmover. What’s your view on this?



I’m used to hearing that same thing all the time. It’s redundant. This minimalism thing started back in the ’90s. It didn’t start now. That’s nothing new. First, there’s nothing new in golf design anyway, in my opinion. It’s all been done before. You go in cycles and trends.


You also get tagged with a certain label. I’ve been tagged with a label that I move too much earth. But it doesn’t matter whether you move a little bit of earth or a lot of earth. Nobody ever asks about how much earth was moved or what was the cost of building a golf course in earlier times, especially the famous ones. It doesn’t matter.


If you go to some of the old golf courses and you look at them, critique them—a person like me, who’s not trying to get a job, can give you my opinion that maybe they should have moved more earth. If they had the money, the resources and the equipment, maybe that would have been done. In the early stages of golf, for example, blind shots were very acceptable. A lot of great golf courses have blind golf holes. If you build new golf courses today with blind holes, nobody will like that. It’s a failure.


So, do the math. You’re the owner. You’re the developer. Forget the architect. You’re the owner. What do you want?


Do you want a golf course that’s accepted in the marketplace, that people are going to come ooh and aah about? You’re investing money. You have a major commitment. You want recognition. You want to compare your course on opening day to the best courses we’ve ever played.


To what extent do budgets drive the styles that become popular?



When I started in the industry with my uncle, we had a budget somewhere in the area of $10,000 a hole to build. Did Donald Ross have a budget? Probably some kind, but maybe they didn’t, or they’d go find a good piece of land for golf.


Let’s call the 1920s the golden age of architecture, as it’s often said it was. The owner would instruct the architect to find a good piece of land for golf. Many courses didn’t have trees. They were planted. And now, 50 to 100 years later, we’re knocking trees. The industry is removing trees because they weren’t there to begin with.


One of the reasons they weren’t there to begin with is because most places didn’t want to build a golf course where there were trees because it was expensive to take trees down. It was much easier to build on land without trees. It’s logical. Also, not many golf courses were built with real estate around them.


You have to look at the era when a course was built and the way things were built. You can’t divorce style from the era in which a course was built.


But you hear about clubs, especially older ones, that would prefer not to change, restore, renovate.



There are clubs that resist changes. I was the longtime advisor at Cypress Point. The only changes they’ve really made are to drainage and restoration of bunkers. But getting them to actually change something, like adding length, is like pulling teeth. They’re going to have the Walker Cup in 2025, and you can’t get them to do that. Of course, the good thing about a Walker Cup is that it’s match play. Length doesn’t matter much.


We had the 2022 Presidents Cup at Quail Hollow [where Fazio is also a member]. We had renovated that course for a PGA Tour event, and then we had the 2017 PGA Championship. We’re going to host the PGA again in 2025. The majority of the money was spent on the last five holes because those would be on TV. Are we getting back to the money game again? Of course we are. That’s life in the Presidents Cup; they changed the numbers of the holes and how they would play them so that the finishing holes would be what were Nos. 14, 15 and 16. Matches generally end there. Maybe some matches would get to 17, but almost never to the 18th hole.


At Pine Valley right now, we just rebuilt Nos. 6, 11, 14, 16 and 17. We’ve done five greens where we took all the sod off. We put it to the side. We put in stone and put in new drainage. If you’re a minimalist and don’t want to change much, well, you’re going to have a bad golf course if you don’t make changes to fix the land.


If you’re the developer or owner, you can decide to find a natural, rolling, perfect piece of sandy terrain. That’s what Mike Keiser does, and that’s what the Cabot group looks for. That’s what they’re into, which is fine. It’s a good business plan, it’s a good model and they make it happen.


You’re not going to do too many golf courses on too many properties, though, because there aren’t that many properties like that, right? They become destination resorts, and now how do you get there? On a private airplane, most of the time.


There's a lot more, including quotes on "a restoration like the Seaside course on Sea Island, where we blew up an existing 1929 course that Harry Colt and Charles Alison designed," some commentary on the similarity on links golf holes, golden age courses could've been better if they moved more earth, etc. It's a very good read and worth your time if you're a Golfers Journal subscriber.


Anyone read it? Thoughts?

Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

PCCraig

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2025, 04:52:15 PM »
He just comes off as a grumpy old man.
H.P.S.

SL_Solow

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2025, 05:28:50 PM »
I recall commenting when he put out a book.  He never talked about strategy but there were numerous references to framing.  That was all I needed to know.  I have enjoyed some of his courses but they all have a feeling of form over substance

Tom_Doak

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2025, 06:05:12 AM »
I have not seen the full article, but the excerpts come across the same as Tom Fazio did to me the two times I have sat down and talked with him . . . once in 1986, and the other in 2009 or 2010.


He spends most of his time talking about business instead of golf.  He thinks about his clients . . . and he thinks like his clients.

Nick Schreiber

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2025, 08:18:25 AM »
In the early stages of developing Old Barnwell, I was amazed that many course owners or developers were willing to talk with me about their own experiences. I spoke to five different folks who hired Tom Fazio, and to Tom's point, each one said almost the exact same thing: "He gave me exactly what I wanted." Though I may not love each of his courses that I've had the chance to play, these comments made me re-think my personal view of his capabilities as a business owner and designer.

Tom_Doak

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2025, 08:27:20 AM »
The best Tom Fazio story I've ever heard came from my client at Stonewall, Jack May, who had known Tom from when he was his uncle's project foreman at Waynesborough Country Club in Philadelphia, where Mr. May was also a founder.


There was a point in the project where they had to shut down because the developer couldn't make payroll, and Tom Fazio was the guy who had to tell the construction crew there was no paycheck for them that week.


Waynesborough opened in 1965, so if this was 1964, Tom Fazio was . . . 19 years old.  [And I thought I started young!]


It's not hard to see why he would have become very focused on his clients' ability to pay.

MCirba

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2025, 08:47:56 AM »
What's that line Jeff Goldblum (as The Wizard) sings in "Wicked"?


"Give the people...what they want".

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tom_Doak

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2025, 08:49:23 AM »

"Give the people...what they want".


Especially if the people are rich developers who pay you a lot.

Ryan Book

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2025, 10:06:28 AM »
You could argue that the difference between the Old Tom and Young Tom involved in this conversation is Young is more willing to say "no" to a project, from my understanding, while Old thinks it crazy to do so in such a competitive industry. Young is probably less wealthy for having done so however seems to be doing well for himself, so good on him.


Young Tom, in this case, is a likely exception to the rule...can we blame up-and-coming architects for ignoring their artistic vision to create something more in line with the client's expectations? Sure. As a metalhead, I certainly complain all the time about bands going "corporate." I conveniently ignore whether I would streamline my own product if I had bills to pay.


I certainly would prefer a world with more Young Tom courses than Old Tom ones but I can empathize a little more with his mindset after reading this interview.
"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Tom_Doak

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2025, 10:22:31 AM »
You could argue that the difference between the Old Tom and Young Tom involved in this conversation is Young is more willing to say "no" to a project, from my understanding, while Old thinks it crazy to do so in such a competitive industry. Young is probably less wealthy for having done so however seems to be doing well for himself, so good on him.

Young Tom, in this case, is a likely exception to the rule...can we blame up-and-coming architects for ignoring their artistic vision to create something more in line with the client's expectations? Sure. As a metalhead, I certainly complain all the time about bands going "corporate." I conveniently ignore whether I would streamline my own product if I had bills to pay.

I certainly would prefer a world with more Young Tom courses than Old Tom ones but I can empathize a little more with his mindset after reading this interview.


1.  I'm no longer Young.


2.  Tom Fazio passed on plenty of jobs in his career, too.  He held out for clients who could afford to do the sorts of things he wanted to do.  No fault to him for that.


3.  The kicker is that Tom Fazio didn't take projects because he thought the land had the potential to be great.  He believed he could make a course great by applying his talents [and enough $].  He seems bothered that some people have dismissed that approach, partly because he knows that you can't go back to building 300 courses per year that way.  He liked it better when the business was booming, and good-enough projects were heralded as great, especially those that were the most well-funded.

Ryan Book

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2025, 02:20:06 PM »
Interesting insights, thank you. Only disagreement is that you'll remain "Young Tom" in these conversations until a younger Tom comes along.[size=78%] [/size]



1.  I'm no longer Young.


2.  Tom Fazio passed on plenty of jobs in his career, too.  He held out for clients who could afford to do the sorts of things he wanted to do.  No fault to him for that.


3.  The kicker is that Tom Fazio didn't take projects because he thought the land had the potential to be great.  He believed he could make a course great by applying his talents [and enough $].  He seems bothered that some people have dismissed that approach, partly because he knows that you can't go back to building 300 courses per year that way.  He liked it better when the business was booming, and good-enough projects were heralded as great, especially those that were the most well-funded.

"Cops are an abomination." - C.B. Macdonald and/or Jello Biafra

@BethpageBlackMetal

Bernie Bell

Re: Tom Fazio's interview in The Golfers Journal (No. 30)
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2025, 02:47:14 PM »
Thanks for posting.  Undoubtedly will provoke the ritual Two Minutes Hate for Fazio .... dovetails nicely with the groupthink thread.

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