OT: If the PGA TOUR is serious about slow play they should ..........

[Bret Lawrence]

Base the purse on 4 hour or 4 and a half hour rounds.  If everyone finishes within the time frame the payouts are 100% of the purse.  If everyone finishes in 4:40, the purse is only 90%.  If they finish in 5 hours 70%, so on and so forth.  I don’t think it would take them long to collectively figure out how to speed up play, if their income depended on it, like most other jobs in real life!

Sounds like a great way to incentivize those who are going to miss the cut to play really, really slowly.

I doubt a lot of championship golfers would have such a dishonest mentality, but in case they do just give them 4:20 to play their round. If their not done after 18, they are removed from the course and given a DNF.  They’re not making any money anyway.  The players not making the cut generally have incentive to get out of there as quickly as possible.

[Charlie Goerges]

Base the purse on 4 hour or 4 and a half hour rounds.  If everyone finishes within the time frame the payouts are 100% of the purse.  If everyone finishes in 4:40, the purse is only 90%.  If they finish in 5 hours 70%, so on and so forth.  I don’t think it would take them long to collectively figure out how to speed up play, if their income depended on it, like most other jobs in real life!

Sounds like a great way to incentivize those who are going to miss the cut to play really, really slowly.

I doubt a lot of championship golfers would have such a dishonest mentality, but in case they do just give them 4:20 to play their round. If their not done after 18, they are removed from the course and given a DNF.  They’re not making any money anyway.  The players not making the cut generally have incentive to get out of there as quickly as possible.

I wouldn't be that concerned about the the cut-missers either, but I wonder if that much of a reduction would be enough of a motivator for players whose endorsement contracts can dwarf their winnings?

[Tim Martin]

Base the purse on 4 hour or 4 and a half hour rounds.  If everyone finishes within the time frame the payouts are 100% of the purse.  If everyone finishes in 4:40, the purse is only 90%.  If they finish in 5 hours 70%, so on and so forth.  I don’t think it would take them long to collectively figure out how to speed up play, if their income depended on it, like most other jobs in real life!

Sounds like a great way to incentivize those who are going to miss the cut to play really, really slowly.

I doubt a lot of championship golfers would have such a dishonest mentality, but in case they do just give them 4:20 to play their round. If their not done after 18, they are removed from the course and given a DNF.  They’re not making any money anyway.  The players not making the cut generally have incentive to get out of there as quickly as possible.

I wouldn't be that concerned about the the cut-missers either, but I wonder if that much of a reduction would be enough of a motivator for players whose endorsement contracts can dwarf their winnings?

The outsized scrutiny should be enough to keep them in compliance especially with the prevalence of social media. No one wants to be the player known as a “turtle”.

[Kalen Braley]

I'm loving the creativity on this issue.

Perhaps they would be better incentivized by the carrot vs the stick? Extra Fedex cup points for on-time finishes, or even money bonuses?

[Erik J. Barzeski]

… in case they do just give them 4:20 to play their round. If they're not done after 18, they are removed from the course and given a DNF.

Oh brother.

[Rob Marshall]

"Glover took to "The Lucas Glover Show" on SiriusXM PGA Tour Radio to lay into AimPoint users, who utilize their foot feel to gauge putts: "Statistically, [AimPoint] hasn't helped anybody make more putts since its inception on the PGA Tour."

Glover thinks Aim Point is an issue.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/pga-tour-told-to-immediately-ban-rude-green-trick-max-homa-and-collin-morikawa-use/ar-AA1yyuUY?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=dac3697e91e940c18e1e61911ba55c38&ei=13

[Michael Tamburrini]

Slow play was solved.


They tried a shot clock on the European Tour a few years ago. It worked. Rounds were averaging 4 hrs 13 mins.


https://golf.com/news/european-tours-shot-clock-masters-debuts-to-rave-reviews/


They then decided never to do it again and, you'd have to assume, it's because no-one at the top levels of golf really wants play to be faster.

[Chris Hughes]

Slow play was solved.


They tried a shot clock on the European Tour a few years ago. It worked. Rounds were averaging 4 hrs 13 mins.


https://golf.com/news/european-tours-shot-clock-masters-debuts-to-rave-reviews/


They then decided never to do it again and, you'd have to assume, it's because no-one at the top levels of golf really wants play to be faster.

Bingo.


The only thing that really matters is TV -- finish within the broadcast window -- all good.


Don't like it, go watch some glib hackers on youtube...

[Jerry Kluger]

The biggest problem is that the professional ranks have no credibility with respect to slow play. They have been talking about it for years and have not shown any efforts to analyze the problem nor how to fix it.  The NBA commissioner just said they are considering shortening the game to 4 ten minute quarters because it is lasting too long. 


If the PGA Tour is being honest in their claims that they are trying to deal with slow play then I think my suggestion would give them some credibility as it would actually show what is causing the slow play.  Have individuals out on the course following players and timing each one of the shots beginning from when they have arrived at their ball after their playing partner has hit their shot and see what's happening. You do this with a few players each round including some fast and some slow players and see where the difference is.  That way they would have some empirical evidence to look at and see what can be done.  Right now they have nothing other than opinions but no facts.


Chris: yes, we don't have to watch golf if we don't want to but the problem is some golfers who watch the pros try to imitate them and all of their habits which cause slow play.

[Bret Lawrence]

I'm loving the creativity on this issue.

Perhaps they would be better incentivized by the carrot vs the stick? Extra Fedex cup points for on-time finishes, or even money bonuses?

Good point. Perhaps some combination of points and money?  The current problem is that pace of play is stuck somewhere between a courtesy and a rule and no one is going to call a slow penalty on themselves. Very few will call one on a playing partner.  Every state golf association does have pace of play guidelines but they are rarely implemented and for the most part are not effective in the grand scheme of things.  The ball is currently in the USGA and PGA Tours court and their approaches on pace of play have been unsuccessful or we wouldn’t still be talking about it.  The paradigm needs to shift and the ball needs to be in the players court.  The players collectively play slow today because it’s tolerated, there is no reason they couldn’t find a way to collectively speed it up, if THEY no longer wanted to tolerate it.


This is all based on the premise of the OP, that the PGA Tour wants to speed up play.

[Jeff Schley]

Time limits are a part of sport, even the sacred baseball made the pitchers whip their donkey and throw the ball with pitch clocks.  Somehow the sport survived. I don't understand, why you can't simply penalize guys who take more than XXXXX time. If you can get kicked out of XXXXX (fill in the name of an elite club) with a warning letter and 2nd offense for slow play, why can't they penalize Cantlay or these other guys a stroke?  Could it be we just don't have any forward thinking in Ponte Vedra headquarters? From slow play, merger stalling, sponsors leaving, they need new ideas and fresh blood with this just being exhibit 95.

[MCirba]

Spot on, Jeff.

[Kalen Braley]

Time limits are a part of sport, even the sacred baseball made the pitchers whip their donkey and throw the ball with pitch clocks.  Somehow the sport survived. I don't understand, why you can't simply penalize guys who take more than XXXXX time. If you can get kicked out of XXXXX (fill in the name of an elite club) with a warning letter and 2nd offense for slow play, why can't they penalize Cantlay or these other guys a stroke?  Could it be we just don't have any forward thinking in Ponte Vedra headquarters? From slow play, merger stalling, sponsors leaving, they need new ideas and fresh blood with this just being exhibit 95.

Jeff,

While I agree with you in principle, how would you handle the logistical issues of actually rolling out a credible shot clock solution at a PGA Tour event?  See reply #5 for details.

Kalen

[Jim_Coleman]

   In every Pennsylvania and Philadelphia Golf Assn event, including open events with pros, every group is given a maximum time to complete a round. There are four timed checkpoints for each round - after holes 4,9,13 and 18. If a group misses a time, a warning is issued. If a second time is missed, a penalty is assessed.
   This has worked well for decades. No one complains. Easy peasey.

[Jerry Kluger]

To restate my position - the PGA Tour and the LPGA need to do some actual statistical analysis which means going out and timing players - no need to publish the results any more specifically than saying that the statistics show that players are slow in these specific areas such as putting, or preparing to hit a shot, etc. and then perhaps how they feel they can deal with it. Right now all they know is that the rounds are taking too long so they need to present a study showing why they are taking so long. 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Good point. Perhaps some combination of points and money?

The thing is… it's a player-run Tour. There's not an "ownership" group or an independent governing body that creates the Rules.

When they think it's a big enough issue to address, or they give the power to those who think it's a big enough problem to address, it'll be addressed then. Until then… lip service.

[Philippe Binette]

A slow play tax
After 4h45 minutes (15minutes too long) 15% of the winning is given to charity... and 5% more for every 5 minutes...
Applied to the first group registering a bad time and every group behind if not to pace
 

[Matt Schoolfield]

A slow play tax
After 4h45 minutes (15minutes too long) 15% of the winning is given to charity... and 5% more for every 5 minutes...
Applied to the first group registering a bad time and every group behind if not to pace

The number of people, even in this DG, that don't understand the very basics of the assembly-live view of pace of play is deeply frustrating. The delays come from compounding of wait times at pinch points... not total distance walked, not total time it took a single player.

The way to deal with that is known. The tour simply needs to determine an ideal, reasonable throughput of each course, will all the par 3 and short par 5 pinch point accounted for, and then adjust players allowable time over the ball allowing to bank time if they're playing faster than they need to. Each player need to be timed personally for any system to work. But don't take my word for it, read some scholarly articles:

Riccio, Lucius. "Analyzing the Pace of Play in Golf: The Golf Course as a Factory." International Journal of Golf Science 1.2 (2012).

If we really care about pace we can shrink the fields and widen the tee intervals, or we could put each player on the clock. Both solutions would work. We won't though, because again... it's because they don't care. They designed they game to play slow, and professional golf rewards slower play, and so they're going to play slow when it's their turn to play.

[JohnVDB]

Slow play was solved.


They tried a shot clock on the European Tour a few years ago. It worked. Rounds were averaging 4 hrs 13 mins.


https://golf.com/news/european-tours-shot-clock-masters-debuts-to-rave-reviews/


They then decided never to do it again and, you'd have to assume, it's because no-one at the top levels of golf really wants play to be faster.

The reason they didn’t do it again was because of the logistics of doing it.  It requires an official with every group.  There had to be a cart accompanying every group with a clock mounted that the official controlled.  It meant that  every player in every group that is in position with the group in front still has to play every shot faster than they might be comfortable with for no benefit other than making those of you who think that it is a speed golf competition happy.


The reasons for slow rounds have more to do with too many players on the course than players playing slow.  Two tee starts defeat any attempt for a good pace of play. There is nowhere to go most of the time.  Yes, there are groups which get behind and the officials get them going again, but most groups can’t play any faster because there is nowhere to go.


As an example, the first tee time for the final round in a Phoenix was 8:30.  The last groups tee time was 10:42.  Given they need about 10 minutes to tee off, walk to their shots and hit their second shots, it would be 10:52 before the first group from #10 could start their second nine. Therefore if they play faster than 2 hours and 22 minutes they’ll be waiting at the first tee.  Therefore, it is pretty hard to play in under 4:45.


The last group finished around 3:28 which means they played in 4:46.

[Chris Hughes]

As an example, the first tee time for the final round in a Phoenix was 8:30.  The last groups tee time was 10:42.  Given they need about 10 minutes to tee off, walk to their shots and hit their second shots, it would be 10:52 before the first group from #10 could start their second nine. Therefore if they play faster than 2 hours and 22 minutes they’ll be waiting at the first tee.  Therefore, it is pretty hard to play in under 4:45.

The last group finished around 3:28 which means they played in 4:46.

Good post.  The perpetually constipated, USA hating Eamon Lynch attempted a slow-play ambush on Keith Mitchell earlier this week which Keith easily and effectively parried with the specific info you mention there.  Hatin' Eamon sure seems like an incredibly unhappy bloke.




4:46 sounds pretty darn good!  As long as they finish inside the time window for TV what's the problem?   

[Stewart Abramson]

Article about slow play from today's Global Golf Post. Doesn't make it sound like anything will be done about it.


https://read.nxtbook.com/global_golf_post/global_golf_post/20250210/green_col_slow_play.html?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=S2&utm_content=green_column&utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=Change%20of%20pace&utm_campaign=US%20Mailer%20021025#

[Lou_Duran]

   I’m quite sure every state golf association has a slow play policy that is easily enforced at local events. It’s not complicated.

I'm mostly retired from officiating, but the Texas Golf Association and the USGA have specific pace-of-play guideline which if enforced, can alleviate some of the slow play problems.  Both organizations seek to minimize the interaction between officials and players, with some "officials-in-charge" only allow intervention when a violation is already committed while fewer others encouraging moving slow players along (e.g. if there is a big gap early in the tee sheet, inform the players to stay in touch with the group in front of them even if they are "on pace".  Me, my belief is that officials are there to facilitate fair play and anything I can do to minimize the need to penalize a player should be considered.


A big problem is setting the amount of time to play each hole and the entire round.  Playing in groups of three normally, 4:45-4:50 for a round is typical, and better administered events often get done on time with minimal warnings and hardly-ever penalties for slow play.  Me, 4:00 should be more than enough for most qualifiers, but it would risk the unpleasantness of rulings and penalties.


Juniors are bad; college golfers are worst.  All organizations know slow-play is a problem, but rocking the boat creates headaches.  The amount of player/caddie interaction is appalling.  I worked a US Women's Am qualifier one year where players wouldn't even putt from 2' without the caddie reading and lining the putt.


I don't know that slow play is killing the game, but it sure has had an effect on my willingness to spend 12 hours on a course watching aspiring golfers trudge along.  The shot clock is fine with me, though I wouldn't want responsibility for enforcement.   

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