Going Back

[Kyle Harris]

Starting a new thought around the GroupThink thread that I think deserves it's own topic.

How much GroupThink is borne out of a desire to be able to go back to a club?

And if there is a strong desire to "go back" is that not, in a sense, a statement about the quality of the course?

/Yes, I know this is also an incredibly naive position that people actually rank these courses based on playing golf.

[Tim Martin]

Kyle-The good/great courses are “compelling” to play and by definition are both captivating and irresistible. Repeat play is a solid barometer of quality.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle-The good/great courses are “compelling” to play and by definition are both captivating and irresistible. Repeat play is a solid barometer of quality.

This is more a political post for raters.

It's probably a lot easier to be honest in your assessment if you don't care about going back.

The WHY is what is in question. I'm being naive in that it would be golf course quality and not avoiding some black list.

[mike_malone]

I seem to get away with honest assessments. Of course I’m free of being an rater.

[Tommy Williamsen]

There are some courses that are so fun to play I never want to leave the course. I played 45 holes one day this past year and would have played more, but my 77-year-old body couldn't do it. I'd go back in a heartbeat.

[Sam Morrow]

There are some courses that are so fun to play I never want to leave the course. I played 45 holes one day this past year and would have played more, but my 77-year-old body couldn't do it. I'd go back in a heartbeat.

Tommy,


These are the posts I enjoy the most, I love hearing about places people had fun and didn't wanna stop!

[Tom_Doak]

There are some courses that are so fun to play I never want to leave the course. I played 45 holes one day this past year and would have played more, but my 77-year-old body couldn't do it. I'd go back in a heartbeat.

Tommy,


These are the posts I enjoy the most, I love hearing about places people had fun and didn't wanna stop!

I feel like a lot of what are considered the “best” courses are places I wouldn’t want to play over and over.


Of my own courses, the ones that I think I’d like to live nearby and the list of my highest ranked courses are only loosely correlated.

[Sam Morrow]

There are some courses that are so fun to play I never want to leave the course. I played 45 holes one day this past year and would have played more, but my 77-year-old body couldn't do it. I'd go back in a heartbeat.

Tommy,


These are the posts I enjoy the most, I love hearing about places people had fun and didn't wanna stop!

I feel like a lot of what are considered the “best” courses are places I wouldn’t want to play over and over.


Of my own courses, the ones that I think I’d like to live nearby and the list of my highest ranked courses are only loosely correlated.

Years ago after playing Merion I told someone that I wouldn't wanna get beat up like that everyday, poor guy couldn't believe I'd say that!


I played it the same day as Huntingdon Valley and had more fun there.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I seem to get away with honest assessments. Of course I’m free of being an rater.

Everyone is can be a critic with a bit of thoughtfulness. The thing that separates a “rater” from a “blogger” is the endorsement of the golf industrial complex.


You don’t need permission to rate courses. Just some free time and a bit of hutzpah. 

[Tim Martin]

Of course I’m free of being an rater.

Unburdened

[Chris Hughes]

Starting a new thought around the GroupThink thread that I think deserves it's own topic.

How much GroupThink is borne out of a desire to be able to go back to a club?

And if there is a strong desire to "go back" is that not, in a sense, a statement about the quality of the course?

/Yes, I know this is also an incredibly naive position that people actually rank these courses based on playing golf.

When you say "go back"...


...do you mean on a comped basis?

[Sean_A]

There are some courses that are so fun to play I never want to leave the course. I played 45 holes one day this past year and would have played more, but my 77-year-old body couldn't do it. I'd go back in a heartbeat.

Tommy,


These are the posts I enjoy the most, I love hearing about places people had fun and didn't wanna stop!

I feel like a lot of what are considered the “best” courses are places I wouldn’t want to play over and over.

I am much the same. Best or great isn’t equal to favourite. But then the courses I want to live near is different still. The vibe of the club and things like location matter perhaps at least as much as the course.

Kyle

I don’t worry too much about going back to places, but I do return to a ton of places…often more than twice.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Kyle,


I think you have a point. Although I think it’s first and foremost about politeness rather than an inherent desire to not rock the boat.


Off the top of my head, I can think of two highly rated (World Top-50) private courses I would be far more critical of if I wasn’t spitting in the face of my incredibly welcoming and wonderful hosts.


Of course, I could still rank them lower (if I was actually a ranker) but when the entirety of social media commentary is overwhelmingly positive, it does create a general bias towards rankers placing courses higher than they might otherwise. Which in turn feeds the monster.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,


I think you have a point. Although I think it’s first and foremost about politeness rather than an inherent desire to not rock the boat.


Off the top of my head, I can think of two highly rated (World Top-50) private courses I would be far more critical of if I wasn’t spitting in the face of my incredibly welcoming and wonderful hosts.


Of course, I could still rank them lower (if I was actually a ranker) but when the entirety of social media commentary is overwhelmingly positive, it does create a general bias towards rankers placing courses higher than they might otherwise. Which in turn feeds the monster.

I can be accused of this, too, though I generally prefer to say nothing and allow that to be the "negative rating" if anything.

About the only thing to be said is that the golf course doesn't need to be rated.

Chris Hughes,

 

[MCirba]

Kyle,


Agree that wanting to go back to a course is a sign of affection and likely quality but dont understand the tie-in to rating courses?


Not sure about the other rating panels but can tell you that at Golfweek we are encouraged to keep our ballots secret, even from other raters. 


If a host asks, there's a polite way to be honest but inoffensive.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,


Agree that wanting to go back to a course is a sign of affection and likely quality but dont understand the tie-in to rating courses?


Not sure about the other rating panels but can tell you that at Golfweek we are encouraged to keep our ballots secret, even from other raters. 


If a host asks, there's a polite way to be honest but inoffensive.

It was said on another thread that a certain golf course in a certain state could never be supplanted as #1 in that state because of it's high-influence membership, etc. No, not that state, the other one.

Which, to me, begged the question of "Would I want to go back so much that I'd care to change my opinion on the golf course?"

[MCirba]

Kyle,


People predictably rip rankings and one common theme presented here over the years is that one needed multiple visits, in varying weather and winds and seasons and such to have a valid opinion.


That's crap.  I'd counter by asking folks to honestly tell me how many second, or third, or more visits to any course resulted in them adjusting their initial impression by more than one point on the Doak Scale.   


I can think of one.

[Tom_Doak]

People predictably rip rankings and one common theme presented here over the years is that one needed multiple visits, in varying weather and winds and seasons and such to have a valid opinion.

That's crap.  I'd counter by asking folks to honestly tell me how many second, or third, or more visits to any course resulted in them adjusting their initial impression by more than one point on the Doak Scale.   

Mike:


That's true, but it's because 90% of one's opinion is subjective.  The people who want you to keep going back until you agree with them are just convinced that their opinion has become more objective over years of prolonged exposure.  Which is somewhat true . . . they have more facts on which to base their subjective opinion.

[MCirba]

Tom,


Agree that a lot of it is subjective and that multiple plays provide more data points towards objective justification but I still think my 1 point delta among visits is almost universally true.   


I think there's another factor in play here which is simply that experience in seeing a vast array of different golf courses from sublime to dreadful to me has more weight of objective validity than any one person playing one course multiple times.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

Agree that a lot of it is subjective and that multiple plays provide more data points towards objective justification but I still think my 1 point delta among visits is almost universally true.   

I think there's another factor in play here which is simply that experience in seeing a vast array of different golf courses from sublime to dreadful to me has more weight of objective validity than any one person playing one course multiple times.

Agreed on both points.


Some people still think I shouldn’t have reviewed the 1000 courses I’ve only seen once, and stuck to the 500 everyone already knows about!

[Kalen Braley]

How do we solve for the paradox where we:

Ask raters to be well-traveled, have an extensive list of 100s of courses to draw from, (ideally with multiple plays at each course), to form a valid opinion.

Vs.

The practical reality that for the vast vast majority, given time and cost constraints, they may only play many courses just once and may be missing alot due to lack of access, or too remote to get to.

I would think the list of those who have unlimited time and resources to become perennial globetrotters would be extremely short.

[Dan_Callahan]

Newport Country Club is ranked below quite a few courses in New England, and yet if I could only belong to one course in the Northeast, that would be the one I'd choose. In my mind, it is the perfect blend of fun and challenge, and because of it's proximity to the ocean, it has the added variable of wind/weather. Does that make it the "best" course in that part of the country? No idea. It's certainly my favorite. I had the same debate with myself when I was thinking about a course to join in Ireland. I ended up going with Rosses Point because in my opinion it had the best combination of fun, challenge, variety, and playability. Again, I'm not going to argue that it is the "best," but it is the course I most look forward to going back to day after day.

[Kyle Harris]

While I appreciate the sentiment here a quick reminder that my point in this thread is asking how much your opinion of a golf course is skewed due to your host's reaction to it and your desire to be invited back to the property.

Not underrated courses that you'd rather play every day over more higher rated courses.

[mike_malone]

Kyle,


If you’re disappointed why would you want to go back?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,


If you’re disappointed why would you want to go back?

Disappointment comes from expectation, for starters.


One must assess whether the expectation was fair or not.


And that has to work both ways. A course exceeding expectations is the same as a course not reaching them in that it says more about the expectation than the course.

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