News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark_Fine

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #175 on: February 13, 2025, 10:50:57 AM »
Michael,
Your point about most panelists having just one play is my point.  It is hard to judge a great course fully in one play and this adds to the variety of courses selected and the movement in the rankings.  The difference between #50 and #150 might be less than half a point.  Good luck distinguishing that small a difference in one go around.  It is done by many but,….

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #176 on: February 14, 2025, 07:26:06 AM »
Michael,
Your point about most panelists having just one play is my point.  It is hard to judge a great course fully in one play and this adds to the variety of courses selected and the movement in the rankings.  The difference between #50 and #150 might be less than half a point.  Good luck distinguishing that small a difference in one go around.  It is done by many but,….


Mark, sorry if it sounded like I disagreed with your comment.
I agree exactly with what you are saying, a single look at a golf course is a ridiculous way in what h to make a judgment .
Yet that usually ends up being the case.
I think one usually knows if you like a course on one visit but several rounds as with the case of Mr Jones one’s opinion can be altered.
With regards to the question of this thread and the influence of consensus, the courses I had the opportunity to visit and was underwhelmed with left me wondering what did I miss ? Do I even know what I am talking about ?
Questioning my ability as a panelist.
So that alone suggests the influence of consensus in evaluating 🤔

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #177 on: February 14, 2025, 01:13:44 PM »
I honestly don't understand any rater who doubts their own judgement so much they feel compelled to bolster or flatten their own rating based on feeling the need to conform, especially when it's a secret ballot whose contents are known only to yourself and the publication you work for.


For instance, for the life of me I'll never understand the popularity of Muirfield Village, or Oak Hill East, for instance, and have to believe tournament familiarity elevates their ratings.   On the resort side Whistling Straits would be another case in point.   When I rated each I knew my rating would likely be a low outlier so I made sure my comments justified those opinions.


At other times I knew I was rating a course higher than was generally believed, such as Manasquan River and Prouts Neck, both of which are low-profile clubs that certainly would never be hosting major events but again, I happily stand my those opinions and provide commentary to substantiate those ratings.



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Kyle Harris

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #178 on: February 14, 2025, 01:27:58 PM »
Every so often one reads a beard-pulling think piece on how The Beatles are overrated (they're not) and the think piece also makes the correct point that all The Beatles (earned) hype often comes at the expense of other great bands of that era, like The Kinks (who are underrated).

Rankings, by their nature, force a mutual exclusivity into something that isn't mutually exclusive. Except that one cannot listen to both The Kinks and The Beatles at the same time and fully appreciate them on their own merits.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Mark_Fine

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #179 on: February 14, 2025, 07:59:37 PM »
Mike,
I agree with you as a panelist’s review is kept private and the course never sees it so there is no need to conform.  The only conformance should be around the criteria for what it is that you are rating.  And therein lies the challenge for any ranking - are the reviewers looking at and rating the same things?  For example, go play golf with three people you don’t know or maybe even who you do know and ask them after the round what they thought of the golf course.  You might be shocked at and how varied what they tell you.  The point is, it helps to be more specific with your question in what you want them to comment about and that means adding some criteria to your question.  The Doak Scale is one example of adding some criteria as well as a number to get an answer to your question about quality of the golf course.  All the major rankings have criteria as you well know.  And getting back to your point, panelist’s reviews are confidential. If there is any explaining to do it would be private with the editors of the rankings.

Mike_Young

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #180 on: February 15, 2025, 09:30:11 AM »
Okay fine. You want guts?


To see the really great places, you have to be hosted. Someone is taking the time to be with a likely stranger. And you’ve been told, as an enthusiast, that this course is the one to which all others should aspire. People you admire also think this course is the greatest. And then you play it. You buy the course history and spend half a mortgage payment in the shop. You read, for YEARS, how good the place is. But this feeling gnaws at you…it’s just not what they all say it is.


Is it me that’s crazy? Yeah probably. I’ll just mark it a 10 cause Brad said my rating gets thrown out if it’s too far off the norm anyway.


Groupthink is powerful!
Ben,
Here's the deal.  Consensus or groupthink...it doesn't matter.  Enjoy the great ones.  Especially the ones that have stood the test of time.  The game itself is what matters and each course has 18,  4.25 inch cups and after that it is all opinion.  Rankings generate notoriety and in some cases income for resorts and public courses.
I have a feeling many of the private clubs are tired of it.  I think we are close to the day when there will be some courses built and the public may not know it.   What do you think the biggest example of group think is in golf?  I'm going to venture to say it is Titleist.  Is their ball really better than some of the others? Look at their market share.  For this game to prosper people have to play 15,000 course here in the States.  Golf car companies have to sell to 15,000 courses even if the leather bag carrying dudes says it is evil.   

Social media has changed the game whether it be rankings and group think or how to find a place to play when on the road.  Your generation and the generation after you are eliminating much of the BS. 
This is a good site.  1500 guys of all persuasions....it's fun to see the great places here and there just like restaurants but I don't know of anyone I play golf with who thinks about rankings.  540 millions rounds played last year in the States. 
Come see me...
« Last Edit: February 15, 2025, 09:33:06 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #181 on: February 15, 2025, 09:38:19 AM »
I honestly don't understand any rater who doubts their own judgement so much they feel compelled to bolster or flatten their own rating based on feeling the need to conform, especially when it's a secret ballot whose contents are known only to yourself and the publication you work for.


For instance, for the life of me I'll never understand the popularity of Muirfield Village, or Oak Hill East, for instance, and have to believe tournament familiarity elevates their ratings.   On the resort side Whistling Straits would be another case in point.   When I rated each I knew my rating would likely be a low outlier so I made sure my comments justified those opinio


At other times I knew I was rating a course higher than was generally believed, such as Manasquan River and Prouts Neck, both of which are low-profile clubs that certainly would never be hosting major events but again, I happily stand my those opinions and provide commentary to substantiate those ratings.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #182 on: February 15, 2025, 09:41:01 AM »
I honestly don't understand any rater who doubts their own judgement so much they feel compelled to bolster or flatten their own rating based on feeling the need to conform, especially when it's a secret ballot whose contents are known only to yourself and the publication you work for.


For instance, for the life of me I'll never understand the popularity of Muirfield Village, or Oak Hill East, for instance, and have to believe tournament familiarity elevates their ratings.   On the resort side Whistling Straits would be another case in point.   When I rated each I knew my rating would likely be a low outlier so I made sure my comments justified those opinions.



At other times I knew I was rating a course higher than was generally believed, such as Manasquan River and Prouts Neck, both of which are low-profile clubs that certainly would never be hosting major events but again, I happily stand my those opinions and provide commentary to substantiate those ratings.




I didn’t say that I ever changed my final rating 🤔
It just made me wonder if perhaps there were people out there that saw something that I simply “ didn’t get”.
My final entered evaluation was not changed.
I think you totally missed my point.

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #183 on: February 15, 2025, 09:46:50 AM »
Michael Wharton-Palmer,


My sincere apologies if I read too much into what you posted.  I know the nagging feeling you're talking about.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #184 on: February 15, 2025, 10:48:09 AM »
When you buy something in the shop you are admitting something about either the course or yourself that you most likely didn’t want revealed.

Mark_Fine

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #185 on: February 16, 2025, 01:55:26 PM »
Since there is NO definitive definition of the term “best” there is no factually correct list and never will be.  As such, Groupthink will ALWAYS have an influence in rankings or in almost anything.  That doesn’t mean we have to conform (some do some don’t).  If Ran Morrissett says Somerset Hills is a 9 there is nothing factual about that even if he defends it in great detail. However, it might make those of us who know Ran and know his score think a bit more or search a bit more when we decide our own rating.  That is the power of groupthink.  If we decide it is a 7 or an 8 instead are we wrong?  Of course not.  If we agree with his 9 did we conform?  Maybe, maybe not.  If Tom Doak and multiple others also say it is a 9, where does that leave us if we feel it is something different?  It still doesn’t mean we are wrong it just might mean we are in the minority but that is ok too. 






Forrest Richardson

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #186 on: February 16, 2025, 11:41:52 PM »
Fine art doesn’t have ‘rating’ panels. The AIA does, but it is juried mostly by peers and clients. Golf Design is clearly unique in that we’ve delegated the ‘most important’ lists (those that spawn careers and new ideas) to a highly refined list of consumers who are selected for their social status and elite connections. What’s more, the consumers on these panels are aligned with popular golf writers who by and large follow 20 or so designers and have no real interest in the other 200. Group think is pervasive in golf architecture, which is evident by the attraction to old school looks and courses moreso than any other genre.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Mike Nuzzo

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #187 on: February 17, 2025, 12:21:19 AM »
these panels are aligned with popular golf writers who by and large follow 20 or so designers and have no real interest in the other 200. Group think is pervasive in golf architecture, which is evident by the attraction to old school looks and courses moreso than any other genre.


A guy no one knew designed a golf course for one person that hardly anyone would ever see.
Golf Digest, Golf Architecture Magazine, Golf Magazine, Links, Centurion, WSJ, Golf Punk, Golfweek, Golf Club Atlas, Texas Golfer, Confidential Guide... all wrote glowingly about the course.
The ASGCA was the only entity that was not interested.
Peace
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Andrew Harvie

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #188 on: February 17, 2025, 11:33:32 AM »
Fine art doesn’t have ‘rating’ panels. The AIA does, but it is juried mostly by peers and clients. Golf Design is clearly unique in that we’ve delegated the ‘most important’ lists (those that spawn careers and new ideas) to a highly refined list of consumers who are selected for their social status and elite connections. What’s more, the consumers on these panels are aligned with popular golf writers who by and large follow 20 or so designers and have no real interest in the other 200. Group think is pervasive in golf architecture, which is evident by the attraction to old school looks and courses moreso than any other genre.


It depends on what you define as fine art, but there's rating panels of consumers for golf courses, music, movies, food, BBC even made a TV show in the 1990s about the 100 best paintings in their view.


But again, if everyone reads & consumes the same ideology dating back to Bernard Darwin (or even before that), and more or less they all advocate for the same things on a macro level (the minor details between Braid and Mackenzie, for example, are obviously different), and the post-mid-modern literature also advocates for the same principles, then it's not shocking to see that if we all consume the exact same content that we would all regurgitate the same thing.


In this instance, changing “groupthink” begins with something—a book, podcast, digital content—that provides a unique, new perspective whilst capturing people's attention to view the profession differently. I know Tom Fazio's book didn't do that for me, and A Difficult Par didn't, either. It would probably serve the market and architecture in general well if there was an anti-Fried Egg/Golf Club Atlas, where they advocated heavily for the exact opposite principals to provide a secondary opinion, but nobody has done that. Of course, I don't particularly want the so-called "Dark Ages" to come back, but a different view would likely solve the "people focus on 20 architects instead of the other 200" as it would a) give media organizations other architects to focus on, and b) die-hard consumers would feel motivation to seek out other styles/architects to compare and contrast.
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #189 on: February 17, 2025, 03:13:16 PM »
It would probably serve the market and architecture in general well if there was an anti-Fried Egg/Golf Club Atlas, where they advocated heavily for the exact opposite principals to provide a secondary opinion, but nobody has done that.
I'm pretty sure this is just the standard golf fan. It's the wildly dominant view of golf architecture outside of the "golf architecture" space is just penal. You should be rewarded for hitting the ball far and straight, the farther the better, and pretty much everything else is unfair. It's this fair-police crew that thinks relief from a fairway divot is a top priority, centerline bunkers are dumb, and greens should slope back-to-front. That is genuine diversity of thought. And even further from that is folks that think golf courses are effectively a commodity, like a tennis court, which can take a back seat to a real estate development.

As I said way back on page one. I don't think the GCA space suffers from groupthink, I just think that fashions are to be expected in any consumptive art form. As much as the architects in this forum might disagree on particulars, I'd hope pretty much everyone here is in agree that strategic golf is valuable, and the golf course should not be an applied driving range. Fighting about whether that is accomplished with cops or camouflaged bunkers is almost immaterial, and should be expected as tastes change and novel design ideas becomes boring.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 06:00:30 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #190 on: February 17, 2025, 03:27:24 PM »
"Applied Driving Range". Love it!


Thanks, Matt..really well stated. 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Simon Barrington

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #191 on: February 17, 2025, 06:02:23 PM »
Deleted - OT
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 07:21:48 AM by Simon Barrington »

Mark_Fine

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #192 on: February 17, 2025, 09:46:55 PM »
All architects have many things in common where they think alike that maybe they learned on their own or maybe from others.  But they all also have their own ways of doing things (at least I hope they do) that help differentiate themselves.

Many years ago I ran a specialty materials company and used to say if I had for example seven people in a management meeting and we all thought alike, I had six too many people in that meeting.  I wanted people on my team who had different thoughts and ideas than me AND who were willing to share them.  Together we would discuss and debate and no one would take their ball and go home if they didn’t get their way but all would be heard.  It is amazing what we were able to accomplish  :)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 12:58:32 PM by Mark_Fine »

Kalen Braley

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #193 on: February 18, 2025, 12:57:14 PM »
So we've all seen these articles come across our news feed.

An provocative/interesting title with many expected mentions and a few not-so-much.  Has this guy avoided the group think trap or perhaps other motives at play?  ;D

P.S.  I checked our directory, he doesn't appear to be a member of the site.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/i-ve-been-to-over-200-high-end-golf-courses-around-the-globe-here-are-8-of-my-all-time-favorites/ar-AA1t1t9F?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=cdff722350d34d14f2788eddbd056dc1&ei=15

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #194 on: February 18, 2025, 01:29:45 PM »
So we've all seen these articles come across our news feed.

An provocative/interesting title with many expected mentions and a few not-so-much.  Has this guy avoided the group think trap or perhaps other motives at play?  ;D

P.S.  I checked our directory, he doesn't appear to be a member of the site.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/i-ve-been-to-over-200-high-end-golf-courses-around-the-globe-here-are-8-of-my-all-time-favorites/ar-AA1t1t9F?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=cdff722350d34d14f2788eddbd056dc1&ei=15


Sounds to me like he uses the "Cypress Point" hook to bait recommendations for a bunch of high-end resorts, Kalen.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kirk

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #195 on: February 18, 2025, 01:32:31 PM »

I'm pretty sure this is just the standard golf fan. It's the wildly dominant view of golf architecture outside of the "golf architecture" space is just penal. You should be rewarded for hitting the ball far and straight, the farther the better, and pretty much everything else is unfair. It's this fair-police crew that thinks relief from a fairway divot is a top priority, centerline bunkers are dumb, and greens should slope back-to-front. That is genuine diversity of thought. And even further from that is folks that think golf courses are effectively a commodity, like a tennis court, which can take a back seat to a real estate development.

As I said way back on page one. I don't think the GCA space suffers from groupthink, I just think that fashions are to be expected in any consumptive art form. As much as the architects in this forum might disagree on particulars, I'd hope pretty much everyone here is in agree that strategic golf is valuable, and the golf course should not be an applied driving range. Fighting about whether that is accomplished with cops or camouflaged bunkers is almost immaterial, and should be expected as tastes change and novel design ideas becomes boring.

Hi Matt,

I sincerely hope that the prevailing wisdom about golf courses, expressed both here and in the rankings in major golf publications, is not a fashionable trend. I'd like to think that it is an evolution of thought about the sport.  I don't know if strict logic is involved, but there are practical reasons why certain features on a golf course are desirable.  Thanks.

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #196 on: February 18, 2025, 03:58:21 PM »
I sincerely hope that the prevailing wisdom about golf courses, expressed both here and in the rankings in major golf publications, is not a fashionable trend. I'd like to think that it is an evolution of thought about the sport.  I don't know if strict logic is involved, but there are practical reasons why certain features on a golf course are desirable.  Thanks.
I don't really even know how to respond to this so I apologize in advance for this wall of text.

We are talking about aesthetics here. Golf is a game that is ultimately pointless, and the only value it provides is the feelings it engenders in us. The idea that there is some ideal course that we are chasing is just nonsense. We decide what we want golf to be: stroke play, match play, or just putting smiley faces for our score. Is it better to hit the percentage shot, the hero shot, or just the shot that's most fun? None if it ultimately matters. The idea that golf "should be" one way or "should be" another way is entirely arbitrary. We should be careful when we try to universalize our own preferences, because telling others that their honest preferences are incorrect is obviously ridiculous.

Now, I understand that most people will reject my philosophical absurdism here, and there are some places to push back against it. That people are born with a basis for aesthetics built into our minds is certainly a possibility. However, in looking at the history of art, we just see the same thing over and over: waves of novel and interesting concepts flooding in, and then receding when the next generation gets a chance to make something new and interesting. That the older generations often reject these "new wave" art movements is obviously not important, as time marches on without them.

Yes, technology plays a major role here, but technology ultimately just removes some of the obstructions of to the artist (here I meant to find a interview with Sufjan Stevens about layering midi tracks), or opens up new areas to explore (Giorgio Moroder exploring the synth) . And ultimately the interaction between the artist and his or her environment will heavily impact the type of art that will be successful (David Byrne on the influence of architecture on music), and with golf the main hindrance is obviously cost (though PGA 2K25 is being released this month, and GCA fans do themselves credit by following some of the artists on that platform if they want to see designs that genuine do not care about this group, much less any groupthink).

As long as cost prohibits the architecture, it's easy for us to convince ourselves that our generation's versions of Solomon Guggenheim are geniuses, instead of just people with interesting taste and the means to execute their vision. It is that conception of the world where we start fighting about groupthink, but as these thought-leaders pass away, their vision will be replaced with other interesting visions. There's nothing wrong with this. Something being in fashion doesn't make it worthy of scorn, it just means that we exist in a certain time and place, and we can accept and find what we like where we are, or we can pine for a previous era (an era where folks likely also pined for their previous eras). Does it make sense to fight about how to rank Franz Liszt or Robert Johnson or even Joel Zimmerman? It's a fool's errand, but we can still enjoy them and have preferences about them.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 05:06:55 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Ira Fishman

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #197 on: February 18, 2025, 05:19:53 PM »
One thing that I think may have gotten lost in this thread is that whether you call it Group Think or Consensus the range and variety of architecture in that category does encompass everything from Litszt (actually don’t know anything about him) to Johnson (great musician who now is the pantheon of group think) to Zimmerman (Robert that is). Scroll through the GM 100 which is a good proxy for Consensus or Group Think, and I think that you will see the range and variety.


Having said that, the dominance of a very small number of current architects in the Consensus/Group Think is noticeable. Perhaps the recent boom in development will change that fact; perhaps C&C and Doak really are Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms or Tatum, Parker, and Davis. Time will tell. In the meantime, I am glad to enjoy their works and those of the ODGs.

John Kirk

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #198 on: February 18, 2025, 05:21:37 PM »

We are talking about aesthetics here. Golf is a game that is ultimately pointless, and the only value it provides is the feelings it engenders in us. The idea that there is some ideal course that we are chasing is just nonsense. We decide what we want golf to be: stroke play, match play, or just putting smiley faces for our score. Is it better to hit the percentage shot, the hero shot, or just the shot that's most fun? None if it ultimately matters. The idea that golf "should be" one way or "should be" another way is entirely arbitrary. We should be careful when we try to universalize our own preferences, because telling others that their honest preferences are incorrect is obviously ridiculous.


In for a penny, in for a pound, reluctantly.

In essence, you're arguing the golf course's design does not matter, because tastes change and then somebody else's ideas will be considered superior.  I disagree.

We're not talking solely about aesthetics.  We're talking about a playing field for a game, with shots and results.  Evaluating music, art and golf courses is similar to a point, but the complex physical interaction with the course separates it from these other art forms.

I can't remember once where you've agreed with anything I wrote.  You also leave no room for the possibility that my preferences have evolved gradually from a significantly different set of priorities.

Try to name something novel about golf architecture in the past thirty years.  My answer would include the two full-size reversible courses I am aware of, one in Michigan and another in eastern Oregon.  The existence of very wide courses like Mammoth Dunes, or Hidden Creek in New Jersey might also be considered an innovation.  Ultimately I think the main "innovation" of the past fifty years is a return to the architectural principle of minimalism.  Courses built a century or so ago relied more on clever routing and use of the natural topography, which minimized the need for expensive earthmoving.  They are less expensive to build and less intrusive on the environment.


I feel like we should be friendlier with each other, and I'm not doing myself any favors here.  I'm going to stop, but I look forward to your response.

 


Matt Schoolfield

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #199 on: February 18, 2025, 06:02:10 PM »
In for a penny, in for a pound, reluctantly.

In essence, you're arguing the golf course's design does not matter, because tastes change and then somebody else's ideas will be considered superior.  I disagree.

We're not talking solely about aesthetics.  We're talking about a playing field for a game, with shots and results.  Evaluating music, art and golf courses is similar to a point, but the complex physical interaction with the course separates it from these other art forms.

I can't remember once where you've agreed with anything I wrote.  You also leave no room for the possibility that my preferences have evolved gradually from a significantly different set of priorities.

Try to name something novel about golf architecture in the past thirty years.  My answer would include the two full-size reversible courses I am aware of, one in Michigan and another in eastern Oregon.  The existence of very wide courses like Mammoth Dunes, or Hidden Creek in New Jersey might also be considered an innovation.  Ultimately I think the main "innovation" of the past fifty years is a return to the architectural principle of minimalism.  Courses built a century or so ago relied more on clever routing and use of the natural topography, which minimized the need for expensive earthmoving.  They are less expensive to build and less intrusive on the environment.


I feel like we should be friendlier with each other, and I'm not doing myself any favors here.  I'm going to stop, but I look forward to your response.
John, firstly, please don't take my arguments here to have any impact on my opinion of the person behind them. I want to make it clear that I harbor no ill will toward you at all. I can be great friends with the people I strongly disagree with, but as iron sharpens iron, so too that I have no intention of pulling my punches simply because I find someone agreeable. So do please let me reiterate that I mean all of this with kindness. If my prose seems to give off an angry vibe, I am sorry as I do not mean it.

To your point, I think it's clear that we disagree. I do not think that golf course designs matter beyond the fact that they facilitate pleasant feelings in our minds, and I think those pleasant feelings are context dependent, meaning that we generally can't experience the same pleasant discovery of some novel idea on the same play field twice. That things don't "matter" does not mean that they are worthless... only that their worth is tied to the individual. Consensus is to be expected as the same ideas generally impact people in similar ways given a specific time and place, but that generally fades and as much as we like "Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms or Tatum, Parker, and Davis" that's not what's on most folks' daily playlists. It's not like there is an authority out there telling music fans that they're listening to the wrong Zimmerman (who, ironically, both use pseudonymous).

You reject the parallel to music, fair enough. My conception of aesthetics is context-independent, but I'm open to other ideas.

I fully understand that my absurdist approach to aesthetics will be a minority view (it is extremely counterintuitive). I think it's the only sensible view, and I can try to articulate that, while also pointing out it's potential short-comings, which I try to be open about. I'm open to other views, but I find most folks ultimately must resort to asserting truism when other folks disagree. If I'm wrong here, I try to be as open as possible to someone explaining why, because understanding a better perspective can only benefit me.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 06:11:07 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Tags: