Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings

[Charlie Goerges]

poor decision-making

The negative outcome part of the traditional definitions of groupthink is something we haven't talked about a lot yet. I think there are (or can be) poor outcomes, I have some in mind, but I'm curious what others think those poor outcomes are in this case. We could even think about whether poor outcomes should be part of a definition.

[John Kavanaugh]

What is the popular Wisconsin rotation for the well travelled gentleman now that Sand Valley is in the mix? I only played Erin Hills and Lawsonia on my one visit. Makes me feel like an idiot when I say it out loud.

[John Kirk]

...

[MCirba]

What is the popular Wisconsin rotation for the well travelled gentleman now that Sand Valley is in the mix? I only played Erin Hills and Lawsonia on my one visit. Makes me feel like an idiot when I say it out loud.

John,

The group I'm going with is heading to Kohler, where I've previously been playing Whistling Straits (Straits) and Blackwolf Run (River).  Playing those again along with the Irish course and Meadows Valley.   Hoping to play Lawsonia and Brown Deer Park (I'm still a muni rat) around the edges of that trip.

We're hoping to get to Sand Valley in 2027. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Are you taking your wives? I never visited Kohler because it feels like a couples resort.

[Kyle Harris]

Perhaps the whole thing makes more sense when one realizes you’re not rating or ranking courses for a publication but rather creating content for a publication.

[Joe Hancock]

Not sure if it’s worth noting at this point, but I believe Bandon (and probably Sand Valley) encourages their guests to have their own ratings….and the lists are in every configuration possible. Which makes me ask…is one more susceptible to consensus and/ or groupthink as their knowledge of ratings and lists grows?

[MCirba]

Are you taking your wives? I never visited Kohler because it feels like a couples resort.

Honestly, I wish we were as there is very little to do other than play golf in Kohler.   On the plus side, it's almost impossible to get into trouble, as well.   

[Mark_Fine]

GD has made a lot of changes over the years to their criteria for evaluation.  I think those changes have been for the better.  They got off the tough but fair philosophy which I never liked at all.  They also got off their green is better mentality recognizing that some courses are/were designed to play firm and fast and off color brownish grass is just fine if not ideal in many situations.  Who for example wants to play a green and soft links course!  I think GD also recognizes that they need more experienced and educated panelists and they have finally upped their standards on what it takes to become a panelist as well as what you must do to have your votes counted. 


As an architect but more as a golfer, I have no strong feelings about all the different lists.  I will compare them to my own but more importantly, I am looking for courses I might not have seen or known about and will use the lists to investigate new targets for travel. 


There are pros and cons to all the lists but as has been stated many times, they promote lively discussion often about architecture and that is not a bad thing. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Are you taking your wives? I never visited Kohler because it feels like a couples resort.

Honestly, I wish we were as there is very little to do other than play golf in Kohler.   On the plus side, it's almost impossible to get into trouble, as well.

Thanks for the wake up call. The profile I had painted of you would have never pegged you for a guy trip to Kohler. So expensive and yesterday’s news. My apologies. Have fun.

[MCirba]

Thanks for the wake up call. The profile I had painted of you would have never pegged you for a guy trip to Kohler. So expensive and yesterday’s news. My apologies. Have fun.

Not to derail this thread, but given that, you'll be thrilled to learn I'm also going on a (different) guy's trip to Myrtle Beach in late April, playing courses by Arnold Palmer, Ron Garl, Jack Nicklaus, Dan Maples, and Edmund Ault.


As I get older I'm less inclined to say no.  The fact my younger brother is coming was a big factor.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mike,


We are discussing groupthink and rankings if only we know it. You see through my ruse.


I love Myrtle Beach and what it provides for the overall golfing community. I had as much fun there as anywhere. Myrtle Beach does not compare logistically or financially to Kohler. I’m not even sure climatically why someone from out east would choose Kohler in September.

[MCirba]

John,

When my dad was alive I used to bring him on a guy's trip to Myrtle every year.  He would look forward to it all year long and talk about last year's trip all during the year.   He was a blue-collar guy, a Teamster, the son of a coal miner who died in the mines a few months before my dad was born and he used to tell my mom that "if heaven isn't like Myrtle Beach, I'm not going".   

[Jaeger Kovich]

I have been following and enjoying this thread for a few days now from snowy NJ.


One of the most gca centric group think topics that has grown the strongest over the last 5-7 years is what I like to call "Template Madness".


Not only do you see it with the group think in the rankings of the real CBM/Raynor courses as well as the faux ones, but its directly effecting developers and architects too. There have been more faux versions of the template holes than ever before on short courses, new courses, and renovations of existing courses that had very lose ties to them at best.


I guess the groupthink has come about through the greater recognition of the holes, mostly via the internet and twitter/instagram. I hypothesize that the recognition of their architectural feautres makes people assume that they are all good holes/courses and also the best way to make some $ as the masses seem to be gravitating in this direction more and more... I dont think that this is a pure consensus phenomenon.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Not only do you see it with the group think in the rankings of the real CBM/Raynor courses as well as the faux ones, but its directly effecting developers and architects too. There have been more faux versions of the template holes than ever before on short courses, new courses, and renovations of existing courses that had very lose ties to them at best.

Now that you mention it, there is one area of groupthink in the GCA that I would point to: the downright fetishization  of perceived authenticity. I'm guilty of it myself in some of these threads.

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