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John Kavanaugh

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #200 on: February 18, 2025, 06:41:46 PM »
Can fun be murdered in a world where golf is pointless?

Forrest Richardson

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #201 on: February 18, 2025, 08:25:29 PM »
Mike N — No doubt there are exceptions. I’ve been the recipient of exceptional accolades and it was great. But until raters, writers, etc. take the time and effort to research and spend time with more minds and their work, we’re stuck with the occasional exception. That’s not a trend.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

John Kirk

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #202 on: February 18, 2025, 08:44:34 PM »

John, firstly, please don't take my arguments here to have any impact on my opinion of the person behind them. I want to make it clear that I harbor no ill will toward you at all. I can be great friends with the people I strongly disagree with, but as iron sharpens iron, so too that I have no intention of pulling my punches simply because I find someone agreeable. So do please let me reiterate that I mean all of this with kindness. If my prose seems to give off an angry vibe, I am sorry as I do not mean it.


Matt,

Thanks for the response.  As has often been the case, I had to look up "absurdist" to find out what the term means.  I've wondered whether your educational background compels you to look at things like music or golf courses differently.  With you it seems there are no absolutes when it comes to golf courses or music; all opinion is impermanent and should be treated as such.

« Last Edit: February 18, 2025, 10:01:29 PM by John Kirk »

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #203 on: February 19, 2025, 04:10:11 AM »
With you it seems there are no absolutes when it comes to golf courses or music; all opinion is impermanent and should be treated as such.
I appreciate your patience.

I think it's worth adding that just because there are no absolutes from the bird's-eye view, doesn't mean comparative analysis isn't worthwhile (I very much think it is). E.g., I think golf is more worthwhile when it's strategic. When I'm in agreement with someone else about how we both like strategic golf, it's easy to argue about which courses are better than other courses. This is because we have a framework that we agree on to judge the courses. A good example of this is reflected in the principles of the  147+ Custodians: it's pretty straightforward to agree on which courses, say, encourage the ball to run more vs which ones do not.

The issue for me is that the frameworks we use are, in a sense, arbitrary. My old roommate was all about the fair police, argued for narrower fairways, didn't play on windy days, thought pristine conditions were the only way to play, etc., etc. My point is that I don't think there is any way for me to assert that his view of golf is wrong. He lives the card-and-pencil, he thinks golf is about perfecting a golf swing, he likes having it be about skill and doesn't want an inch of randomness involved. It's what he likes. Who am I to tell him anything except that that type of golf makes me miserable.

This is why I focus on a film critic-style system of course ratings over aggregated rankings. When you and someone else agree on a framework (like the 147+ framework), then you can be served by course reviews within that framework. There may be room to argue about the particulars, but generally speaking there are reasons for these decisions based on the guidelines. When we argue about the particulars, we are often just having a proxy argument over these guidelines. Under this view, we can still have something like Golf Mag's Top 100, but it doesn't hold authority. At best, it's something more like a book club putting out a list of their favorite books (where "favorite" means something very different than "best"). However, as with individual film critics, it would be better if we broke the ratings down to the individual level, so as to maximize the diversity of thought. This is good because it lets the reader find a reviewer that shares the most similar framework, which allows the reader to find other courses they would like under that framework.

Here, the more well defined the framework, the less subjective reviews are. However, the frameworks themselves are always -- to a large extent -- arbitrary. I'm not saying random noise sounds just as good as composed music. The human brain quite obviously has built in preferences: the vast majority of humans like sweet things more than bitter things. I'm just saying, within that generally pleasant range, general preferences are going to be kind of all over the place, and on occasion (as with vegemite) we might not even agree on what counts as pleasant.

I would add a caveat that a difference between music and architecture is the engineering aspects of it. As art moves toward craft, and as craft moves toward engineering, we leave the world of aesthetics and we enter the world of function. If the function of an architectural feature is to drain, that it drains well or poorly is not arbitrary.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2025, 04:27:46 AM by Matt Schoolfield »

Andrew Harvie

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #204 on: February 19, 2025, 12:08:20 PM »
It would probably serve the market and architecture in general well if there was an anti-Fried Egg/Golf Club Atlas, where they advocated heavily for the exact opposite principals to provide a secondary opinion, but nobody has done that.
I'm pretty sure this is just the standard golf fan. It's the wildly dominant view of golf architecture outside of the "golf architecture" space is just penal. You should be rewarded for hitting the ball far and straight, the farther the better, and pretty much everything else is unfair. It's this fair-police crew that thinks relief from a fairway divot is a top priority, centerline bunkers are dumb, and greens should slope back-to-front. That is genuine diversity of thought. And even further from that is folks that think golf courses are effectively a commodity, like a tennis court, which can take a back seat to a real estate development.

As I said way back on page one. I don't think the GCA space suffers from groupthink, I just think that fashions are to be expected in any consumptive art form. As much as the architects in this forum might disagree on particulars, I'd hope pretty much everyone here is in agree that strategic golf is valuable, and the golf course should not be an applied driving range. Fighting about whether that is accomplished with cops or camouflaged bunkers is almost immaterial, and should be expected as tastes change and novel design ideas becomes boring.


Standard golf fan, yes, but it's not like there's literature or a website to really strengthen its point. Most people associate greatness with the ability to host high-level events because they see it on TV, but why is that? Someone could write a really crafty article about how great golf needs to challenge ~all levels of play. To play devil's advocate, if something can't host a TOUR event (or a high-level amateur or college event) from a pure difficulty and challenge standpoint (forget the logistics and build out), can it really be the best golf course if it can't challenge the best players of that era? Of course I don't believe that, but if someone wrote about the evolution of golf architecture and how a place like Cypress Point or Jasper Park Lodge once challenged the best players when they first opened and now they might not be able to do it at the same level that a Pine Valley or St. George's in today's world so in their eyes, those "easy" golf courses can't be considered among the best anymore, that would be a captivating read.


That was largely my point. There's nothing really saying why Cypress Point shouldn't be in the top 3 golf courses in the world unanimously because it's too easy for the PGA TOUR now, and nobody has really explored why and if Pine Valley doesn't deserve its #1 position, so it's no surprise to see them virtually 1 & 2 on every list (this is not me saying they don't deserve it, btw) and nearly everyone goes in expecting them to be the best golf course in the world and is almost afraid to say if they feel like they aren't because everything and everyone, for 100-ish years, has held them in the highest regard. If we all consume the same education, then of course there's a consensus amongst everyone. Augusta is a good example of this actually because there's a wide range of opinions on it. For some reason, it's a golf course people aren't afraid to criticize harshly (I've heard as low as barely making the world top 100, but there's also still a good case for it to be #1 for some people). 


So if someone was able to make a "Anti-Fried Egg" or "Anti-Golf Club Atlas," and explore the subject as in-depth as both of those websites have, that's when the consensus breaks or at the very least, you add another ingredient into the equation when discussing golf courses. The overwhelming majority of golfers don't think like GCA/Fried Egg when it comes to golf courses, but there's never really been anyone exploring ~why that is or making a well-thought-out argument the same way someone like Ran Morrissett or Tom Doak or Geoff Shackleford or whomever you want to point to was really pushing the principles of what we know as "minimalism" now.


I'm not saying that's me—I subscribe heavily to the Ran Morrissett school of golf philosophy, as evident by the position I'm in with this website now—but it would be fascinating to see someone brashly take a stance against what GCA & Fried Egg have pushed for ~25 years, but doing it in a really sophisticated manner and honing in on principles or a philosophy they prefer and why. That would be quite the interesting website/book/podcast to read and listen to, and it would be good to have someone pick apart some of the world's greatest golf courses in a thoughtful manner to provide a second opinion and have a wide variety of viewpoints. Golf Digest is the closest thing to this, but I never felt like they did it all that well and DD isn't exactly in opposition of what Andy Johnson writes so they've softened their stance in recent years. Maybe they should've steered into it even more and been unapologetically in favour of golf courses that can host events and urban golf courses, rather than shifting closer to the new age of thinking.
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Kyle Harris

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #205 on: February 19, 2025, 01:53:55 PM »
I'm not sure how helpful to discussion branding a "standard golf fan" as Anti-TFE/GCA can be. For starters, I simply do not buy the premise or existence of standard golf fan. In fact, the very tag itself in this context seems to merely define it as "something I/we are not".

Just because a person does not prioritize rankings in their enjoyment of the game does not mean they are incapable of assessing the quality of a golf course. I'd even suggest there are more than a number of "standard golf fans" that contribute to this very forum!
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Sean_A

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #206 on: February 19, 2025, 03:59:32 PM »
It would probably serve the market and architecture in general well if there was an anti-Fried Egg/Golf Club Atlas, where they advocated heavily for the exact opposite principals to provide a secondary opinion, but nobody has done that.
I'm pretty sure this is just the standard golf fan. It's the wildly dominant view of golf architecture outside of the "golf architecture" space is just penal. You should be rewarded for hitting the ball far and straight, the farther the better, and pretty much everything else is unfair. It's this fair-police crew that thinks relief from a fairway divot is a top priority, centerline bunkers are dumb, and greens should slope back-to-front. That is genuine diversity of thought. And even further from that is folks that think golf courses are effectively a commodity, like a tennis court, which can take a back seat to a real estate development.

As I said way back on page one. I don't think the GCA space suffers from groupthink, I just think that fashions are to be expected in any consumptive art form. As much as the architects in this forum might disagree on particulars, I'd hope pretty much everyone here is in agree that strategic golf is valuable, and the golf course should not be an applied driving range. Fighting about whether that is accomplished with cops or camouflaged bunkers is almost immaterial, and should be expected as tastes change and novel design ideas becomes boring.


Standard golf fan, yes, but it's not like there's literature or a website to really strengthen its point. Most people associate greatness with the ability to host high-level events because they see it on TV, but why is that? Someone could write a really crafty article about how great golf needs to challenge ~all levels of play. To play devil's advocate, if something can't host a TOUR event (or a high-level amateur or college event) from a pure difficulty and challenge standpoint (forget the logistics and build out), can it really be the best golf course if it can't challenge the best players of that era? Of course I don't believe that, but if someone wrote about the evolution of golf architecture and how a place like Cypress Point or Jasper Park Lodge once challenged the best players when they first opened and now they might not be able to do it at the same level that a Pine Valley or St. George's in today's world so in their eyes, those "easy" golf courses can't be considered among the best anymore, that would be a captivating read.


That was largely my point. There's nothing really saying why Cypress Point shouldn't be in the top 3 golf courses in the world unanimously because it's too easy for the PGA TOUR now, and nobody has really explored why and if Pine Valley doesn't deserve its #1 position, so it's no surprise to see them virtually 1 & 2 on every list (this is not me saying they don't deserve it, btw) and nearly everyone goes in expecting them to be the best golf course in the world and is almost afraid to say if they feel like they aren't because everything and everyone, for 100-ish years, has held them in the highest regard. If we all consume the same education, then of course there's a consensus amongst everyone. Augusta is a good example of this actually because there's a wide range of opinions on it. For some reason, it's a golf course people aren't afraid to criticize harshly (I've heard as low as barely making the world top 100, but there's also still a good case for it to be #1 for some people). 


So if someone was able to make a "Anti-Fried Egg" or "Anti-Golf Club Atlas," and explore the subject as in-depth as both of those websites have, that's when the consensus breaks or at the very least, you add another ingredient into the equation when discussing golf courses. The overwhelming majority of golfers don't think like GCA/Fried Egg when it comes to golf courses, but there's never really been anyone exploring ~why that is or making a well-thought-out argument the same way someone like Ran Morrissett or Tom Doak or Geoff Shackleford or whomever you want to point to was really pushing the principles of what we know as "minimalism" now.


I'm not saying that's me—I subscribe heavily to the Ran Morrissett school of golf philosophy, as evident by the position I'm in with this website now—but it would be fascinating to see someone brashly take a stance against what GCA & Fried Egg have pushed for ~25 years, but doing it in a really sophisticated manner and honing in on principles or a philosophy they prefer and why. That would be quite the interesting website/book/podcast to read and listen to, and it would be good to have someone pick apart some of the world's greatest golf courses in a thoughtful manner to provide a second opinion and have a wide variety of viewpoints. Golf Digest is the closest thing to this, but I never felt like they did it all that well and DD isn't exactly in opposition of what Andy Johnson writes so they've softened their stance in recent years. Maybe they should've steered into it even more and been unapologetically in favour of golf courses that can host events and urban golf courses, rather than shifting closer to the new age of thinking.

Derek Duncan pushes back against the philosophy of the 50s-80s as the dark ages of gca. I am not sure I agree with him, but I haven’t heard a fully laid out cogent argument by Derek on the subject.

In any case, Derek hosts what I consider to be the best gca podcast I know of.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Dumbarnie, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

John Kavanaugh

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #207 on: February 19, 2025, 04:21:08 PM »
Is it now our contention that Fried Egg and GCA are co-conspirators? I have to admit he has some cool looking trips.




John Kirk

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #208 on: February 19, 2025, 07:24:18 PM »


I think it's worth adding that just because there are no absolutes from the bird's-eye view, doesn't mean comparative analysis isn't worthwhile (I very much think it is). E.g., I think golf is more worthwhile when it's strategic. When I'm in agreement with someone else about how we both like strategic golf, it's easy to argue about which courses are better than other courses. This is because we have a framework that we agree on to judge the courses. A good example of this is reflected in the principles of the  147+ Custodians: it's pretty straightforward to agree on which courses, say, encourage the ball to run more vs which ones do not.

The issue for me is that the frameworks we use are, in a sense, arbitrary. My old roommate was all about the fair police, argued for narrower fairways, didn't play on windy days, thought pristine conditions were the only way to play, etc., etc. My point is that I don't think there is any way for me to assert that his view of golf is wrong. He lives the card-and-pencil, he thinks golf is about perfecting a golf swing, he likes having it be about skill and doesn't want an inch of randomness involved. It's what he likes. Who am I to tell him anything except that that type of golf makes me miserable.

This is why I focus on a film critic-style system of course ratings over aggregated rankings. When you and someone else agree on a framework (like the 147+ framework), then you can be served by course reviews within that framework. There may be room to argue about the particulars, but generally speaking there are reasons for these decisions based on the guidelines. When we argue about the particulars, we are often just having a proxy argument over these guidelines. Under this view, we can still have something like Golf Mag's Top 100, but it doesn't hold authority. At best, it's something more like a book club putting out a list of their favorite books (where "favorite" means something very different than "best"). However, as with individual film critics, it would be better if we broke the ratings down to the individual level, so as to maximize the diversity of thought. This is good because it lets the reader find a reviewer that shares the most similar framework, which allows the reader to find other courses they would like under that framework.

Here, the more well defined the framework, the less subjective reviews are. However, the frameworks themselves are always -- to a large extent -- arbitrary. I'm not saying random noise sounds just as good as composed music. The human brain quite obviously has built in preferences: the vast majority of humans like sweet things more than bitter things. I'm just saying, within that generally pleasant range, general preferences are going to be kind of all over the place, and on occasion (as with vegemite) we might not even agree on what counts as pleasant.

I would add a caveat that a difference between music and architecture is the engineering aspects of it. As art moves toward craft, and as craft moves toward engineering, we leave the world of aesthetics and we enter the world of function. If the function of an architectural feature is to drain, that it drains well or poorly is not arbitrary.

Hi Matt,

There's a lot here.  Let me share a couple of succinct thoughts:

1.  What your former roommate believes are obstacles to fairness and golf purity can easily be characterized as skills. Playing in the wind and/or rain is a skill to be learned.  Playing out of a divot is a skill to be learned.  Handling adversity on the course because you got a bad bounce or landed in a footprint in the bunker is a crucial skill to be learned.  There's a famous old story attributed to two of the greatest golfers of the 1980s.  One of these golfers generally believed that the world was conspiring against him, while the other great was unflappable and a major overachiever in big tournaments.  The story goes that the two players land in a divot during a tournament.  The first one looks at it and says, "Do you see what just happened to me?" while the second one looks at his predicament and says "Watch this."

Growing us as a baseball statistics nut, my framework for good golf suggests that it's best when the course yields rare plays.  In baseball, there are a wide variety of play outcomes which range in frequency from common to very rare, only a few times a year for the whole season.  They are an essential part of golf.  The decisions regarding the method of recovery can have big consequences, and they can create lasting memories.

For amusement, the Randy Newman song titled "The World Isn't Fair" is relevant here.

2.  Consider the possibility that the aesthetics and function of golf course architecture are one and the same.  Historically I get a little resistance on that idea.

3.  This whole thread started because the current Golf and Golf Digest rankings are so similar, despite the fact they clearly use different frameworks.

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #209 on: February 19, 2025, 07:47:51 PM »
I'm not sure how helpful to discussion branding a "standard golf fan" as Anti-TFE/GCA can be.
I'd even suggest there are more than a number of "standard golf fans" that contribute to this very forum!
A semantic disagreement, but I'll concede the point. I should have been more careful with my language there. How about the median user of /r/golf on reddit? I've had little-to-no success there with anything golf architecture related. The vast majority of the content that is successful is generally related to the topics discussed above.

Standard golf fan, yes, but it's not like there's literature or a website to really strengthen its point.

It's a long conversation, but I basically see the Tour, Tour-related media, and generally the USGA to all be generally in support of these positions. While I understand that there isn't much academic-related media here, I guess I'm not sure who the audience would be. Lord knows, the median reddit golfer doesn't care. I suppose I feel focus there is on the players, not on the courses, because the focus is on the golf swing under that paradigm, and the courses seem to be almost an afterthought.

That was largely my point. There's nothing really saying why Cypress Point shouldn't be in the top 3 golf courses in the world unanimously because it's too easy for the PGA TOUR now, and nobody has really explored why and if Pine Valley doesn't deserve its #1 position, so it's no surprise to see them virtually 1 & 2 on every list (this is not me saying they don't deserve it, btw) and nearly everyone goes in expecting them to be the best golf course in the world and is almost afraid to say if they feel like they aren't because everything and everyone, for 100-ish years, has held them in the highest regard.

It's an interesting point. I think that beauty and history may play a big factor. Perhaps it's just that nobody has noticed since they don't have tours stops there. It hasn't stopped TOC from being so highly ranked despite the regular double digit negative scores during the opens.

I think I've been fairly overt here that I don't fine either PV or CP particularly worthy of the #1 or #2 spots. Most folks here don't want to hear it because they reject that anything but the dirt on a course should matter and that parallel factors that a course is directly related to: environmentalism, prudence, and even human decency shouldn't matter at all. I do write about this stuff, and I'm happy to say I have a few readers. In that way I don't think the GD and Golf Mag's views differ that much.

To me, I'd probably put Pacific Grove near the top of my list, but again, that is because the things that I care about when thinking about the experience at a golf course include a lot of things that GCA folks don't care about.

Golf Digest is the closest thing to this, but I never felt like they did it all that well and DD isn't exactly in opposition of what Andy Johnson writes so they've softened their stance in recent years.
Derek Duncan pushes back against the philosophy of the 50s-80s as the dark ages of gca. I am not sure I agree with him, but I haven’t heard a fully laid out cogent argument by Derek on the subject.

In any case, Derek hosts what I consider to be the best gca podcast I know of.
I actually agree strongly that Feed the Ball is a top GCA podcast. I certainly find myself disagreeing with Derek with a lot of thing (but I do always wash my clothing on cold, so no worries there). I still think I learn a lot. I also think the "The Hole at" YouTube series that he hosts is exceptional.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2025, 08:19:35 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Matt Schoolfield

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #210 on: February 19, 2025, 07:56:28 PM »
1.  What your former roommate believes are obstacles to fairness and golf purity can easily be characterized as skills. Playing in the wind and/or rain is a skill to be learned.  Playing out of a divot is a skill to be learned.  Handling adversity on the course because you got a bad bounce or landed in a footprint in the bunker is a crucial skill to be learned.  There's a famous old story attributed to two of the greatest golfers of the 1980s.  One of these golfers generally believed that the world was conspiring against him, while the other great was unflappable and a major overachiever in big tournaments.  The story goes that the two players land in a divot during a tournament.  The first one looks at it and says, "Do you see what just happened to me?" while the second one looks at his predicament and says "Watch this."

Growing us as a baseball statistics nut, my framework for good golf suggests that it's best when the course yields rare plays.  In baseball, there are a wide variety of play outcomes which range in frequency from common to very rare, only a few times a year for the whole season.  They are an essential part of golf.  The decisions regarding the method of recovery can have big consequences, and they can create lasting memories.

For amusement, the Randy Newman song titled "The World Isn't Fair" is relevant here.
Here, I can only really hear you asserting truisms. My old roommate isn't going to come around to these arguments. His thinking is that good strike of the ball should be rewarded, a bad shot should be punish. He would continue that world being unfair is irrelevant, because we don't have to make the game unfair, and we shouldn't. (Sorry, Danny if you're out there reading my putting words in your mouth, and these aren't your actual opinions)

Kyle Harris

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #211 on: February 19, 2025, 09:16:23 PM »
Median as standard? Now, I think you're really stretching. There's plenty of Golf Architecture on /r/. Golf is far too encompassing a topic.

The so-called average golfer is a creation for "grow the game" types to justify getting into your wallet. There is no average or standard golfer.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Tom_Doak

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #212 on: Yesterday at 02:47:16 AM »
I'm not saying that's me—I subscribe heavily to the Ran Morrissett school of golf philosophy, as evident by the position I'm in with this website now—but it would be fascinating to see someone brashly take a stance against what GCA & Fried Egg have pushed for ~25 years, but doing it in a really sophisticated manner and honing in on principles or a philosophy they prefer and why. That would be quite the interesting website/book/podcast to read and listen to, and it would be good to have someone pick apart some of the world's greatest golf courses in a thoughtful manner to provide a second opinion and have a wide variety of viewpoints. Golf Digest is the closest thing to this, but I never felt like they did it all that well and DD isn't exactly in opposition of what Andy Johnson writes so they've softened their stance in recent years. Maybe they should've steered into it even more and been unapologetically in favour of golf courses that can host events and urban golf courses, rather than shifting closer to the new age of thinking.


I actually thought the moment of convergence was when Fishers Island showed up in the GOLF DIGEST top 10.  That didn’t make any sense based on their history of rewarding difficulty and high $ maintenance.  I guess they’ve changed a lot of their criteria now, which makes you wonder how places like Alotian are still in the list.

Michael Felton

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #213 on: Yesterday at 08:58:38 AM »
I actually thought the moment of convergence was when Fishers Island showed up in the GOLF DIGEST top 10.  That didn’t make any sense based on their history of rewarding difficulty and high $ maintenance.  I guess they’ve changed a lot of their criteria now, which makes you wonder how places like Alotian are still in the list.


I don't know Alotian, so I'm guessing, but I suspect that's really the groupthink that you were asking about. Thought process along the lines of "Alotian is in the list, so it must be good, so if I don't like it I'm obviously missing something and I don't want to look stupid, so I'll rank it highly." That and although the criteria may have changed I would imagine the personal biases of raters perhaps haven't changed so much. If you have a rater who thinks difficulty and high $ maintenance should matter, but they're not on the list anymore, I can see them bumping up their ratings of other criteria to reflect that.

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