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Charlie Goerges

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #150 on: February 06, 2025, 11:15:55 AM »
poor decision-making




The negative outcome part of the traditional definitions of groupthink is something we haven't talked about a lot yet. I think there are (or can be) poor outcomes, I have some in mind, but I'm curious what others think those poor outcomes are in this case. We could even think about whether poor outcomes should be part of a definition.


Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Kavanaugh

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #151 on: February 06, 2025, 11:21:12 AM »
What is the popular Wisconsin rotation for the well travelled gentleman now that Sand Valley is in the mix? I only played Erin Hills and Lawsonia on my one visit. Makes me feel like an idiot when I say it out loud.

John Kirk

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #152 on: February 06, 2025, 11:28:43 AM »
...
« Last Edit: February 06, 2025, 02:16:53 PM by John Kirk »

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #153 on: February 06, 2025, 11:29:24 AM »
What is the popular Wisconsin rotation for the well travelled gentleman now that Sand Valley is in the mix? I only played Erin Hills and Lawsonia on my one visit. Makes me feel like an idiot when I say it out loud.

John,

The group I'm going with is heading to Kohler, where I've previously been playing Whistling Straits (Straits) and Blackwolf Run (River).  Playing those again along with the Irish course and Meadows Valley.   Hoping to play Lawsonia and Brown Deer Park (I'm still a muni rat) around the edges of that trip.

We're hoping to get to Sand Valley in 2027. 
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #154 on: February 06, 2025, 11:33:43 AM »
Are you taking your wives? I never visited Kohler because it feels like a couples resort.

Kyle Harris

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #155 on: February 06, 2025, 11:33:57 AM »
Perhaps the whole thing makes more sense when one realizes you’re not rating or ranking courses for a publication but rather creating content for a publication.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2025, 11:58:51 AM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

“Split fairways are for teenagers.”

-Tom Doak

Joe Hancock

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #156 on: February 06, 2025, 11:35:07 AM »
Not sure if it’s worth noting at this point, but I believe Bandon (and probably Sand Valley) encourages their guests to have their own ratings….and the lists are in every configuration possible. Which makes me ask…is one more susceptible to consensus and/ or groupthink as their knowledge of ratings and lists grows?
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #157 on: February 06, 2025, 11:46:51 AM »
Are you taking your wives? I never visited Kohler because it feels like a couples resort.


Honestly, I wish we were as there is very little to do other than play golf in Kohler.   On the plus side, it's almost impossible to get into trouble, as well.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mark_Fine

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #158 on: February 06, 2025, 11:57:47 AM »
GD has made a lot of changes over the years to their criteria for evaluation.  I think those changes have been for the better.  They got off the tough but fair philosophy which I never liked at all.  They also got off their green is better mentality recognizing that some courses are/were designed to play firm and fast and off color brownish grass is just fine if not ideal in many situations.  Who for example wants to play a green and soft links course!  I think GD also recognizes that they need more experienced and educated panelists and they have finally upped their standards on what it takes to become a panelist as well as what you must do to have your votes counted. 


As an architect but more as a golfer, I have no strong feelings about all the different lists.  I will compare them to my own but more importantly, I am looking for courses I might not have seen or known about and will use the lists to investigate new targets for travel. 


There are pros and cons to all the lists but as has been stated many times, they promote lively discussion often about architecture and that is not a bad thing. 







John Kavanaugh

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #159 on: February 06, 2025, 12:00:02 PM »
Are you taking your wives? I never visited Kohler because it feels like a couples resort.


Honestly, I wish we were as there is very little to do other than play golf in Kohler.   On the plus side, it's almost impossible to get into trouble, as well.


Thanks for the wake up call. The profile I had painted of you would have never pegged you for a guy trip to Kohler. So expensive and yesterday’s news. My apologies. Have fun.

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #160 on: February 06, 2025, 12:07:06 PM »

Thanks for the wake up call. The profile I had painted of you would have never pegged you for a guy trip to Kohler. So expensive and yesterday’s news. My apologies. Have fun.


Not to derail this thread, but given that, you'll be thrilled to learn I'm also going on a (different) guy's trip to Myrtle Beach in late April, playing courses by Arnold Palmer, Ron Garl, Jack Nicklaus, Dan Maples, and Edmund Ault.


As I get older I'm less inclined to say no.  The fact my younger brother is coming was a big factor.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kavanaugh

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #161 on: February 06, 2025, 12:15:01 PM »
Mike,


We are discussing groupthink and rankings if only we know it. You see through my ruse.


I love Myrtle Beach and what it provides for the overall golfing community. I had as much fun there as anywhere. Myrtle Beach does not compare logistically or financially to Kohler. I’m not even sure climatically why someone from out east would choose Kohler in September.

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #162 on: February 06, 2025, 12:34:13 PM »
John,

When my dad was alive I used to bring him on a guy's trip to Myrtle every year.  He would look forward to it all year long and talk about last year's trip all during the year.   He was a blue-collar guy, a Teamster, the son of a coal miner who died in the mines a few months before my dad was born and he used to tell my mom that "if heaven isn't like Myrtle Beach, I'm not going".   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Jaeger Kovich

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #163 on: February 06, 2025, 03:55:50 PM »
I have been following and enjoying this thread for a few days now from snowy NJ.


One of the most gca centric group think topics that has grown the strongest over the last 5-7 years is what I like to call "Template Madness".


Not only do you see it with the group think in the rankings of the real CBM/Raynor courses as well as the faux ones, but its directly effecting developers and architects too. There have been more faux versions of the template holes than ever before on short courses, new courses, and renovations of existing courses that had very lose ties to them at best.


I guess the groupthink has come about through the greater recognition of the holes, mostly via the internet and twitter/instagram. I hypothesize that the recognition of their architectural feautres makes people assume that they are all good holes/courses and also the best way to make some $ as the masses seem to be gravitating in this direction more and more... I dont think that this is a pure consensus phenomenon.


Matt Schoolfield

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #164 on: February 06, 2025, 04:13:14 PM »
Not only do you see it with the group think in the rankings of the real CBM/Raynor courses as well as the faux ones, but its directly effecting developers and architects too. There have been more faux versions of the template holes than ever before on short courses, new courses, and renovations of existing courses that had very lose ties to them at best.
Now that you mention it, there is one area of groupthink in the GCA that I would point to: the downright fetishization  of perceived authenticity. I'm guilty of it myself in some of these threads.

Derek_Duncan

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #165 on: February 07, 2025, 10:34:13 AM »

The raters who play the most exclusionary courses are very probably not a random sampling of the pool of raters (much less golf enthusiasts). Suppose you have 15 or 20 raters that come play PV, and they end up rated #1. We don't then suggest that PV invites 20 new raters to come through the next year until all 100, 1000, or 10,000 raters (depending on the org) has played, right? I'm pretty skeptical that that would happen, but I honestly don't know.

If we have a limited number of raters come through, we should suspect that those ratings will by sticky. Combine that with the fact that folks who didn't love the course probably won't go though the effort to get back. Whereas someone who doesn't like Pebble might be able to swing by if they're in Monterey, because why not? Here, we've got and system that creates lopsided outcomes when access is restricted. Add in the fact that most rating orgs either "toss" or "investigate" statistical outliers, and you've got a system designed to create outcomes that look like group think.

Here, nothing nefarious need be happening, it's just that a chilling effect on criticism can show up as much in selection bias as it can in folks genuinely holding their tongue to maintain good relationships. Folks who make the effort to return to an exclusive course probably already love it, and few will make that same effort to return to an exclusive course just to shit on it.


Matt:


I agree with everything you've said here.  Indeed, many newer courses try to manage this and sort out which panelists they will invite to see their course to gain a more favorable rating.  That was happening on the GOLF Magazine panel for a while between my involvement and Ran's . . . one of the panelists was apparently getting paid $$$$ by courses to help them manage the results, which they did by limiting access to a few panelists whose votes were reliably favorable.  [No idea if some of those other panelists were cut in on the $$$ or totally oblivious to the situation.] 


That's why the GOLF DIGEST Best New results are under the microscope for some of us:  because it would be a very easy process to manipulate, and many clients are willing to try.


And, no, Pine Valley doesn't make sure that every GOLF DIGEST panelist gets to go there.  They are not worried at all about being supplanted as #1 anytime soon, and they handle it as all clubs should -- by insisting that all players are guests of a member, with no consideration for whether they are a rating panelist or not.


Quite different than the newish course I visited last year that wanted me to sign a non-disclosure agreement that I wouldn't talk about it . . . but had allowed a certain number of GOLF DIGEST panelists to play so it could be considered for the Best New Courses award.



Tom,


Quite a lot of what you've written about the Golf Digest rankings and how the publication works is either misinformed or based on assumptions that might have been true 15 or 20 years ago but are outdated and have long since passed. Up until a few weeks ago you were continuing to insist that Resistance to Scoring was one of the categories panelists used, but that was changed about 8 years ago. Small difference, you may say, but facts are important.


Clubs up for Best New Course, or Renovation or Transformation, do not reach out and hand pick panelists. That's absurd. In fact, for any panelist to play and review any of the nominees they have to be approved by me. I assign each and every panelist who reviews the nominees. I screen them based on tenure (new panelists and those with thin resumes are not eligible) and if I think they're capable of providing an honest assessment. No club is gaming the system.


I'm aware of a handful of clubs around the country (not Best New candidates) that attempt to contact panelists and bring in people they think will deliver favorable evaluations. That is against our policies, and if it comes to my attention we discard the score and dismiss the panelist. If it happened in the old days to some greater degree, I can't say, but it's zero tolerance now.


Most of what you write about Golf Digest is based on some obviously deep-seated belief that we don't conduct our business credibly, or that we can be manipulated. The topic of groupthink vs. consensus is a very interesting one and I don't disagree with many of the views and observations that have been posted here. But let's keep that the topic and stop suggesting that we're being played by clubs. It's false, and the logic doesn't add up.


I find it informative that this all stems from the fact that a course that was on few people's radar won Best New. Wouldn't that be an argument against groupthink? And why isn't the same microscope turned to how Interlachen, Medinah or Pinehurst 10 won their categories.


I perceive it a conflict of interest for me to be posting here, so I'm keeping it to a minimum.  If anyone has serious questions about how things work at Golf Digest I'm happy to respond in DMs, on Twitter (@feedtheball) where I created a thread about The Covey, or email, derek.duncan@wbd.com. If anyone has questions about The Covey, such as if the streams there are real or created (the answer is both), you should listen to my talk with Chet Williams on my podcast, as well as the nearly 100 other architects and golf figures I've had long discussions with over the years.

www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

Brian Finn

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #166 on: February 07, 2025, 10:44:58 AM »

Clubs up for Best New Course, or Renovation or Transformation, do not reach out and hand pick panelists. That's absurd. In fact, for any panelist to play and review any of the nominees they have to be approved by me. I assign each and every panelist who reviews the nominees. I screen them based on tenure (new panelists and those with thin resumes are not eligible) and if I think they're capable of providing an honest assessment. No club is gaming the system.
This paragraph feels...incomplete.  Surely, plenty of GD panelists find their way onto these courses on their own.  If a GD rater plays a candidate course as the guest of a member, are they not automatically qualified to submit a rating?  I must be misunderstanding something here.
New for 2025: Cabarrus CC...

Tim_Weiman

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #167 on: February 07, 2025, 11:28:00 AM »
Derek,


Does Golf Digest publish the number of raters who have seen each nominee?


Tim
Tim Weiman

Tom_Doak

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #168 on: February 07, 2025, 01:30:34 PM »


Clubs up for Best New Course, or Renovation or Transformation, do not reach out and hand pick panelists. That's absurd. In fact, for any panelist to play and review any of the nominees they have to be approved by me. I assign each and every panelist who reviews the nominees. I screen them based on tenure (new panelists and those with thin resumes are not eligible) and if I think they're capable of providing an honest assessment. No club is gaming the system.



I had no idea you did that.  So we've just got to trust you completely not to play any favorites, and everything is kosher?


My advice to my own courses has been not to game the system and not to let anyone else game it, either . . . just to let panelists play on their own dime at resorts, or as the guest of a member at private clubs, according to the club's guest policy for everyone else.  That is how you handle older existing clubs like Seminole or Pine Valley, isn't it?


I guess that would make all of my courses ineligible for your Best New awards.

Adam_Messix

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #169 on: February 07, 2025, 02:39:26 PM »





I have never considered this.  It certainly isn't the reason I criticize Pebble Beach more than other places.  I've criticized Augusta National just as much, but maybe you'll say that is also easy because I wouldn't assume I am ever going to play there again.  I also called The National Golf Links of America "quirky" and the caddie master there still teases me about it to this day [but somehow I am still welcome].



Tom,


I would be more concerned if Billy DID NOT tease you.




One of the things that tends to happen when you conduct a survey of a group of people is that even though there will be major disagreements among individual ballots/evaluations but when you average out the whole of everyone you end up with a consensus that tends to be close to other groups.  That's not group think, that's the way things work.  I disagree with a number of panelists on where they place some courses.  I think what would surprise some is that when we're together how much we disagree on things leading to some lively discussion/banter. 


There certainly have been some major changes in how courses are considered, understanding that courses like Red Fox, De Soto Springs, Loxahatchee, Mayacoo Lakes, Pauma Valley, Goodyear Gold, Firestone South, and Old Marsh were on multiple Golf Digest US lists in the past.... as well as places like Phoenix Japan and Bali Handara on GOLF's World list.  Tastes indeed change, but I think a good bit of the audience have more sophisticated tastes than in the past.  Is that group think?  I'm not so sure. 

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #170 on: February 12, 2025, 03:14:22 PM »
Groupthink dominates the respective rankings.
I did not realise that many of the courses Tom mentioned in his Confidential Guide would not  appear in anybody’s rankings at that time .


There are several highly rated golden age courses by very prominent architects that I have pilgrimaged to play only to leave underwhelmed but then almost feeling I have committed sacrilege thinking that way.


As such I think we are all victims of groupthink and dare I even say it peer pressure on sites like this.


I have been away from here for a long time, mainly because I was becoming tired of being almost ridiculed for having an opinion that perhaps did not fit into the GCA mould.


Since then,  I have been fortunate enough to spend quality time with some “ prominent” folks in the real business of what we discuss, and realise that I am not as much of an idiot as I thought .


Panelists are opinionated that is part of the gig.
Sure we can learn along the way, but we still like what we like and shouldn’t allow groupthink  change what we see and like .


If we succumb to that groupthink mentality where might the next list of courses like Crystal Downs, Old Town, Swinley Forest et al come from.
It took a pioneer of sorts like Mr Doak to open our eyes and see beyond that group think, let’s not get trapped back into it.


I will throw one course out there right now that flies so much under the radar, and that is Saunton.
I am glad it does, because they welcome me every time I go home ,but that is the sort of course that the next Confidential Guide like influence , could rise and rise .


Mark_Fine

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #171 on: February 13, 2025, 06:35:54 AM »
The first time Bobby Jones played The Old Course he thought is was a cow pasture.  Over time it became his favorite golf course.  Was that because he succumbed to group think or was it maybe because some courses need a bit more study to be properly judged  ;)

Michael Wharton-Palmer

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #172 on: February 13, 2025, 08:00:12 AM »
The first time Bobby Jones played The Old Course he thought is was a cow pasture.  Over time it became his favorite golf course.  Was that because he succumbed to group think or was it maybe because some courses need a bit more study to be properly judged  ;)


Mark, a good example BUT, panelists rarely get more than one or two bites at the cherry to formulate their opinion.
As such more study is not really possible.

Simon Barrington

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #173 on: February 13, 2025, 08:23:23 AM »
The first time Bobby Jones played The Old Course he thought is was a cow pasture.  Over time it became his favorite golf course.  Was that because he succumbed to group think or was it maybe because some courses need a bit more study to be properly judged  ;)
Mark, a good example BUT, panelists rarely get more than one or two bites at the cherry to formulate their opinion.
As such more study is not really possible.
The Jones story is the prime example of not letting your playing performance affect your assessment of any course, which is human nature.

Not sure he used "cow pasture" as the description though...as he said himself in his famous St. Andrews Speech several years later:

"People of St Andrews, I know that you are doing me a very high honour and I want you to know that I am very grateful for it. I Appreciate the fact that my good friend, the Provost, has glossed over my first encounter with the Old Course, but I would like you to know that I did not say a lot of things that were put out that I said. But I could not play the course, and I did not think anyone else could. I ask you to remember, of course, that at the time I had attained the ripe old age of 19 years, and I did not know much about golf.
"Actually, that first time, we got along pretty good, the Old Course and me, for two rounds. I scored 151 - of course there was no wind. My boys here this week will admit that ain't bad. But I started off in the third round and the wind was blowing right in my face. That day it was really blowing! I reached the turn in 43, and when I was playing the 7th, 8th and 9th, I thought, "well, that's fine, I'll be blowing home with the wind.' Well, as I stood on the tenth tee it turned right round and it blew home all the way against me. I got a six at the tenth, and then, at the 11th, I put my shot into Hill Bunker, not Strath, as they said. They also say that when I got out of that bunker I hit my ball into the Eden. That's not so, for I never did get the ball out of Hill Bunker."

This story is why IMHO raters should never post a General Play Card (GHIN/WHS) while on a rating visit, and should where possible play with differing handicaps/genders, to assess how the course challenges different players and ball-flights. The purpose is rating and assessing, not scoring or practising one's own game. Repeat visits should be encouraged and possibly weighted in the process
« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 09:19:44 AM by Simon Barrington »

MCirba

Re: Consensus vs. Groupthink in Golf Course Rankings
« Reply #174 on: February 13, 2025, 10:42:15 AM »
The Old Course may be the exception that proves the rule.


Along with Bobby Jones, wasn't it Sam Snead who famously said something about it looking like an old, abandoned golf course and back home they wouldn't plant cow beets on it?


Also, Hugh Wilson was reported to be "sadly disappointed" in the Old Course, as reported by Alex Findlay who concurred, calling the Old Course a "myth", saying golfers played it for "auld lang syne", and then continued the assault, saying it was "worn out", "devoid of grass", with nothing to stop a golf ball but the deep bunkers.


Wilson may have only had one bite of the apple, but surely Findlay had multiple plays.   It does sound like perhaps during long, dry periods the pre-irrigation course suffered.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

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