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Thomas Dai

“It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« on: January 25, 2025, 05:17:13 PM »
DL III says near the start of this piece that “It changed the game”. Bit like the guttie and then the Haskell?
25 years since its appearance would seem like a good opportunity for some debate.
See - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=35dqrZaDEFw
Thoughts?
Atb

Matt Schoolfield

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2025, 06:18:22 PM »
The ball deserves attention, but to me the biggest change was back in 1979 with the hollow metal driver. Eliminating uniform density created the ability to hit the ball with enough speed to make reduction of spin an important tradeoff. The creation of the ProV1 just eliminated that tradeoff.

Kevin_Reilly

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2025, 06:58:04 PM »
The ball deserves attention, but to me the biggest change was back in 1979 with the hollow metal driver. Eliminating uniform density created the ability to hit the ball with enough speed to make reduction of spin an important tradeoff. The creation of the ProV1 just eliminated that tradeoff.


Matt,


The "Pittsburgh Persimmon" Taylor Made driver didn't offer much of an advantage aside from durability.  The real change in drivers came 10+ years later with the Great Big Bertha ($499 then!) and later, the iterations of other drivers like the 975D and one year, J's Professional Weapon.


Those drivers were all smaller than 460cc, so when they introduced larger drivers with maximum COR...with a ball like the ProV1, the cow went out of the barn.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mike_Clayton

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2025, 07:38:28 PM »
The Pittsburg Persimmon driver was the worst driver I ever used. Hit it on the toe and instead of coming back like a wooden driver it kept going right. Same if you hit it in the heal - left to left.
And look back at them now. They look brutally difficult to hit - and mostly the guys who were being paid to used them were the ones who had them in the bag.
The 3 wood, on the other hand, was very good.


The Great Big Bertha was indeed, the great innovation - and when the administration should have immediately capped the size of the head.


Instead they were a mile behind and too late.

Matt Schoolfield

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2025, 07:38:55 PM »
The "Pittsburgh Persimmon" Taylor Made driver didn't offer much of an advantage aside from durability.  The real change in drivers came 10+ years later with the Great Big Bertha ($499 then!) and later, the iterations of other drivers like the 975D and one year, J's Professional Weapon.

Those drivers were all smaller than 460cc, so when they introduced larger drivers with maximum COR...with a ball like the ProV1, the cow went out of the barn.
I'm not arguing that the metal driver broke the game in '79. I'm arguing that the change that broke the game was detaching the relationship between size, weight, strength, and density of drivers (and later most clubs). Previous to the metal driver, the larger you driver head was, the heavier it was. You could shift the center of mass down, but you couldn't increase the size of the sweet spot simply because you had uniform, horizontal density.

That this insight and its implications were not realized for a decade, to me, isn't important. We broke the game when we removed the self balancing relationship between size, strength, and weight when we remove the need to have club heads of effectively uniform density.

You're free to disagree, and I think that there is a non-trivial amount of shaft technology that has increased the distance as well, but my point stands. I think the ProV1's main benefit was simply removing the tradeoff that the previous generations of hollow drivers created, which I think was significantly less relevant to the era of wooden clubs, which already prioritize (or at least balanced) control over power.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2025, 07:41:06 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Sam Morrow

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2025, 07:52:36 PM »
DL III says near the start of this piece that “It changed the game”. Bit like the guttie and then the Haskell?
25 years since its appearance would seem like a good opportunity for some debate.
See - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=35dqrZaDEFw
Thoughts?
Atb


People forget the Precept EV Extra Spin played most notably by Nick Price. That ball was a lot like the ProV before the ProV. It was such a good ball that it made a fat kid from the Houston burbs a highly regarded junior player.

Rob Marshall

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2025, 08:55:32 PM »
The Pittsburg Persimmon driver was the worst driver I ever used. Hit it on the toe and instead of coming back like a wooden driver it kept going right. Same if you hit it in the heal - left to left.
And look back at them now. They look brutally difficult to hit - and mostly the guys who were being paid to used them were the ones who had them in the bag.
The 3 wood, on the other hand, was very good.


The Great Big Bertha was indeed, the great innovation - and when the administration should have immediately capped the size of the head.


Instead they were a mile behind and too late.


I’m 62, started with a laminated driver. Had the Pittsburgh Persimmon and the Bertha. You are spot on Mark. The Bertha was a game changer.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Ronald Montesano

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2025, 08:30:52 AM »
Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.
Coming in 2025
~Robert Moses Pitch 'n Putt
~~Sag Harbor
~~~Chenango Valley
~~~~Sleepy Hollow
~~~~~Montauk Downs
~~~~~~Sunken Meadow
~~~~~~~Some other, posh joints ;)

A.G._Crockett

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2025, 05:38:42 PM »
Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.


Same with the Callaway Rule 35; like the Tour Accuracy, it was out slightly before the ProV1.  But all in 2000, I think?


Still it isn’t inaccurate to consider the ProV1 to be the ball that changed the game, simply because it was, well, a Titleist…
« Last Edit: January 26, 2025, 05:40:15 PM by A.G._Crockett »
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Chris Hughes

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2025, 10:19:36 PM »
Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.


Same with the Callaway Rule 35; like the Tour Accuracy, it was out slightly before the ProV1.  But all in 2000, I think?


Still it isn’t inaccurate to consider the ProV1 to be the ball that changed the game, simply because it was, well, a Titleist…




Obviously there was collective leap forward in the ball-wars at the time but none of the others held a candle to the Pro-V1 -- it defined the category, and was in a class of its own.


Hey A.G., how's that big consultant driven renovation project going at your club?


« Last Edit: January 26, 2025, 11:57:13 PM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Jim Sherma

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2025, 01:18:19 PM »
I am saddened by the PGA of America's stance to fight the ball rollback. Saying that no one wants to become shorter is a shortsighted and probably incorrect thing to say. I would make the case however that no one wants to become relatively shorter is a true statement. If everyone could become proportionally shorter the scale of the game would be corrected and no one would be worse off. Being old enough to have grown up with the wound ball, and top-flite/pinnacle type surlyn of course, I am of the generation that never got shorter as I've aged. Still, I always thought that the Titleist Professional was close to the perfect ball. Fairly durable and felt so good. The 3-piece wound construction (core, rubber bands, and cover) also served as a natural governor to clubhead speed due to it over-compressing/deforming at very high clubhead speeds. Once the USGA/R&A gave in on spring effect club faces and the multilayered Pro-V1 that limited compression at high clubhead speeds (firmer inner mantle construction) while allowing for spin at lower club head speeds off of higher lofted clubs (soft core and urethane that stuck in the grooves), the scale and style of the game was changed for the worse in my opinion.

Michael Morandi

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2025, 06:15:00 PM »
A past USGA president once told me that certain players have driver contracts that require over 300 yards off the tee. This past president is in favor of rolling back the ball. As for clubs versus ball, didn’t Nicklaus say the ball is the number 1 culprit?

Sam Morrow

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2025, 06:31:18 PM »
A past USGA president once told me that certain players have driver contracts that require over 300 yards off the tee. This past president is in favor of rolling back the ball. As for clubs versus ball, didn’t Nicklaus say the ball is the number 1 culprit?


What do you mean by require drives over 300 yards? Are they paid for everyone over 300? Are they not allowed to layup off the tee?

Michael Morandi

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2025, 07:35:50 PM »
The tour measures yards only on certain holes but you raise a good point.

Erik J. Barzeski

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2025, 07:47:36 PM »
I am saddened by the PGA of America's stance to fight the ball rollback.
Count me among those who feel similarly.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Sam Morrow

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2025, 08:28:02 PM »
I am saddened by the PGA of America's stance to fight the ball rollback.
Count me among those who feel similarly.


Short of making their own rules how much can The PGA of America really do?

Niall C

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2025, 10:04:11 AM »
Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.


Same with the Callaway Rule 35; like the Tour Accuracy, it was out slightly before the ProV1.  But all in 2000, I think?



Ah yes, the Callaway Rule 35. The only ball I really got any spin with. Mind you I'm a very moderate ball striker.


And what about the timelines ? If you'd asked me before reading the above posts I'd have said that the Rule 35 was a year or two before the ProV1 and that Tiger was playing with the ProV1 before he went to Nike ? In fact I always thought that Titliest gave him access to the ProV 6 months before everyone else or is that just some urban myth I've bought in to ? Probably.


Niall

Simon Barrington

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2025, 11:40:35 AM »
...
And what about the timelines ? If you'd asked me before reading the above posts I'd have said that the Rule 35 was a year or two before the ProV1 and that Tiger was playing with the ProV1 before he went to Nike ? In fact I always thought that Titliest gave him access to the ProV 6 months before everyone else or is that just some urban myth I've bought in to ? Probably.
Niall
Hello Niall,

The following "Talking Golf" podcast details Tiger's ball change really well...it's well worth a listen...topical of course given its Pebble Beach for the PGA Tour's AT&T this week.

19:34 onwards details how Mark O'Meara's use of the Strata inspired the change, and Tiger then went to work with Bridgestone to develop the new ball for him (to be labelled as Nike Tour Accuracy).
(Includes the strange and amusing story of Steve Williams worrying about Tiger running out of balls during his dominant win of the US Open at Pebble Beach)

https://open.spotify.com/episode/1eiIwOLxfM8GsYSAhRYQIk?si=E2EalW0hTZyWP6K_molewQ

Cheers
« Last Edit: January 31, 2025, 12:24:49 PM by Simon Barrington »

MHiserman

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2025, 12:17:19 PM »
While I will only play a Titleist.  I have a little inside knowledge of this,


The golf ball was reactionary...

the COR change from .78 to 0.822 with a tolerance of .008, creating a total legal limit up to 0.830 (circa 1998) is what REALLY changed the game.

The ++300y distances were attainable with solid core golf balls and new driver face thickness technology that had also just launched in PGA Tour GBigB '95- GBiggestB '97 as described by Matt Schoolfield in the above reply.

Once the solid core balls had more receptive covers and layering  ::)  it became the 'Tale of Two Cities' (best of times/worst of times) for distance changing the game.



BTW this COR change was discussed a while back:

Frank Hannigan dissects the USGA's pathetic distance failures (2006)

Frank Hannigan dissects the USGA's pathetic distance failures

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,26270.msg490205.html#msg490205


"Whether my schedule for the next day called for a tournament round or a trip to the practice tee, the prospect that there was going to be golf in it made me feel priviledged and extremely happy, and I couldn't wait for the sun to come up the next morning so that I could get on the course"-BH

A.G._Crockett

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2025, 04:32:57 PM »
Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.


Same with the Callaway Rule 35; like the Tour Accuracy, it was out slightly before the ProV1.  But all in 2000, I think?



Ah yes, the Callaway Rule 35. The only ball I really got any spin with. Mind you I'm a very moderate ball striker.


And what about the timelines ? If you'd asked me before reading the above posts I'd have said that the Rule 35 was a year or two before the ProV1 and that Tiger was playing with the ProV1 before he went to Nike ? In fact I always thought that Titliest gave him access to the ProV 6 months before everyone else or is that just some urban myth I've bought in to ? Probably.


Niall
I don't think that either the Rule 35 or the Tour Accuracy was out that long before the ProV1; maybe all the same year?  Woods went with Nike well before any of those balls came out, and Google AI tells me that he was using the Titleist Professional before the Tour Accuracy came out; the ProV1 was after that, so I doubt he ever used it in competition.
I remember a story about Titleist sending Davis Love III a sleeve of the prototype ProV1s completely unmarked for him to try.  Supposedly, he played the ball at Sea Island, and hit one in the marsh, but within sight.  After the round, he went home and put on his hip waders and came back and got the ball; it was that much of a secret.  No idea if that story is true.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Simon Barrington

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2025, 05:56:19 PM »
I don't think that either the Rule 35 or the Tour Accuracy was out that long before the ProV1; maybe all the same year?  Woods went with Nike well before any of those balls came out, and Google AI tells me that he was using the Titleist Professional before the Tour Accuracy came out; the ProV1 was after that, so I doubt he ever used it in competition.
The Kevin Cook on the podcast (as above, and in his book "The Tiger Slam - The Inside Story of the Greatest Golf Ever Played") was clear in claiming that Titleist dramatically shortened the development timeline of the Pro V1 in response to Woods' performance advantage with the Nike Tour Accuracy (by Bridgestone). That is consistent to your recollection.

Just as in many innovation leaps the 2nd or 3rd entrant becomes the winner in market share (think VHS, iPod, Google etc.)
Nike Tour Accuracy changed the game, Titleist Pro V1 dominated the new category.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2025, 06:10:10 PM by Simon Barrington »

cary lichtenstein

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2025, 06:02:38 PM »
The ball deserves attention, but to me the biggest change was back in 1979 with the hollow metal driver. Eliminating uniform density created the ability to hit the ball with enough speed to make reduction of spin an important tradeoff. The creation of the ProV1 just eliminated that tradeoff.
I definitely agree
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Erik J. Barzeski

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2025, 10:06:00 PM »
I remember a story about Titleist sending Davis Love III a sleeve of the prototype ProV1s completely unmarked for him to try.  Supposedly, he played the ball at Sea Island, and hit one in the marsh, but within sight.  After the round, he went home and put on his hip waders and came back and got the ball; it was that much of a secret.  No idea if that story is true.

It's in this video from the two guys who can verify it (it was a dozen balls, and he found it the next day and offered to send it back): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35dqrZaDEFw
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Pierre_C

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2025, 10:33:05 PM »
Ron,

    Titleist started working on prototypes of the Pro V1 as far back as 1997 (source) and officially released the Pro V1 in Oct. 2000. When Tiger won the US Open in June 2000 (by 14 or 15 strokes), he was using a solid core Nike Tour Accuracy ball, designed by Hideyuki "Rock" Ishii (source) - who also designed balls for Rory. Subsequently, Tiger won his next 3 majors using the same ball (source). Tiger first played the Nike Tour Accuracy in May 2000 at the Deutsche Bank-SAP Open, then the following week at the Memorial, winning by 5 strokes (source). At the end of the 'Tiger Slam', the entire field at the 2001 Masters was using a solid core ball, except for 4 players (source).

According to Mark O'Meara, his success with Top Flite's Strata Tour ball ( a solid core ball) winning the 1998 Master and Open Championship peaked Tiger's interest in a solid core ball. While playing a practice around at The Masters with O'Meara, Tiger noticed O'Meara was getting more spin on his ball then realized it was the ball's construction - at the time Tiger was playing a Titleist Tour Professional (source).

Ishii joined Bridgestone in 1989, and is credited with developing Bridgestone's first professional golf ball, Precept circa 1990. Bridgestone's real breakthrough in professional golf ball is credited to Nick Faldo. Faldo won the 1992 Open Championship using Bridgestone's Precept Tour Double Cover ball. On the heals of Faldo's win, Nick Price won the 1994 Open Championships, 1994 PGA Championship, & 1996 Master using Bridgestone's Precept EV Extra Spin ball (source). When Nike decided to enter the golf equipment business, Ishii was the sole engineer of the 1996 Bridgestone team developing Nike's balls.

In 2002, Ishii joined Nike and was their lead engineer on ball R&D - below is a great article on his work at Bridgestone & Nike. When Nike announced they would halt manufacturing clubs and balls Callaway hired Ishii in 2016. At Callaway, Ishii developed the Chromo Soft ball. 



https://thepnga.org/news/the-man-behind-nike-golfs-transformational-golf-balls-rock-ishii-oga-member/





Tiger's Nike ball, which was a Bridgestone wrapped in a different blanket, was the predecessor to the Pro V1, correct? It didn't change the game, but it did compel everyone else to make a paradigm shift in their golf ball construction.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2025, 11:47:02 PM by Pierre_C »
e^(iπ) + 1 = 0

Chris Hughes

Re: “It changed the game.” The ProV1 story (25 years)
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2025, 01:07:17 AM »
I am saddened by the PGA of America's stance to fight the ball rollback.
Count me among those who feel similarly.


Short of making their own rules how much can The PGA of America really do?


Join up with the PGA Tour and decline to go along -- make their own rules if you will.


Quite simple actually...


I remember a story about Titleist sending Davis Love III a sleeve of the prototype ProV1s completely unmarked for him to try.  Supposedly, he played the ball at Sea Island, and hit one in the marsh, but within sight.  After the round, he went home and put on his hip waders and came back and got the ball; it was that much of a secret.  No idea if that story is true.

It's in this video from the two guys who can verify it (it was a dozen balls, and he found it the next day and offered to send it back): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35dqrZaDEFw


Great video thanks!


UP Vote registered...  ;)      (FTR, I only give up votes)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2025, 01:09:13 AM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

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