Why is Pine Valley?

[Michael Morandi]

Only played it once. Thought it was difficult but fair. Demanded more than I had in my bag that day. I’d probably prefer to be a member at PV than  ANGC. Likely won’t have the choice. That’s ok because there is so much good golf out there

[Pete Lavallee]

Mark Fine,  out of curiosity are you a rater?

[Mark_Fine]

Pete,
I am a member of the ASGCA.

Tom,
I have played several rounds with Bill Shean including out at Chicago Golf.  Great guy and he would know distances.  As you know it is not only the carry distsnce that scares people it is just knowing that they have to make a carry. We have both seen ponds or streams that are 10 or 20 yards wide in front of tees or greens cause constant topping of balls into them. 

On #7 it used to be just over 300 to the edge of the half acre (maybe someone here can verify that).  As such you had to gauge how close to get. As such, that 100 yard carry over hell’s half acre was always more than 100 yards. 

Let’s face it, PV was purposely designed to be difficult and playability was not a high priority and this has nothing to do with fairness as I despise the term when discussing golf course design.  It is just brutally difficult. Mackenzie would struggle to play all the holes with his putter even though old putters had more loft on them

[archie_struthers]

 


Hello everybody and here I go again. Have been fortunate enough to play some of the very best golf course in the world and every once in a while would think "man this is the best I've ever played . One is even just a quick jump over the bridge from Pine Valley . Some are prettier , some are harder , some are more fun to play (maybe) .  Colin and Mike did a great job articulating why it's so good and as architecture wonks here know, it's in the design. Hole after wonderful hole all different and demanding thought and strategy to achieve the optimum score.


Pine Valley appears to be incredibly hard but I'd argue that one should be able to score with a combination of skill and KNOWLEDGE.
The Crump Cup brings some of the best amateurs in the country every year but it's interesting that more than a few local members have won the tournament against players with far better resumes. So a lot of it is between the ears. When it's cranked up to speeds that many courses do all the time it becomes an incredible test of angles and club selection, but you might only see that a couple times a year if at all. The single most incredible day I have ever witnessed was what I call "Bator's revenge" in 1982" . It was so hard that day that only two guys broke 80 in qualifying. 




As Mike indicated you can have a really good run of holes but can you finish it off?   That wouldn't happen to many of us at a tipped out Butler National or Winged Foot. Pine Valley is one of the only courses in the world where length is not the most important skill.
It just isn't.  Right there is a great reason to love it even more!


The greens are so much fun and require a deft touch , yet they don't repel shots like those at Pinehurst #2 . There are no collection areas (    I hate them ) and the drainage is impeccable. I wish they hadn't done just a few things but all in all when you walk in there today you can still see the same crazy little bunkers that greeted golfers fifty (50) years ago. It's not a bad walk either as all the tees and greens are really close. 


As you know I could go on and on but as stated my two colleagues hit almost all the high notes ...anyone who gets a chance to visit , make sure you go!




p.s.   Mark what you talking about caddies don't want to look for your ball ?  Unless things have changed dramatically this is unequivocabally false .....

[Matt Schoolfield]

One of these days I'm going to have to write something on the epistemological problems of the reviews of genuinely inaccessible golf courses. Even while hearing folks whose opinions genuinely respect, there's still a part of me that thinks there is so much selection bias involved that we really can't hear a rounded take, because the folks that would probably dislike the place probably wouldn't put in the energy to get there.

Maybe Pine Valley is the cat's pajamas, but I can easily think of parallels and nit picking other courses that are accessible. The reports of sand pros in the waste areas, the quite renovations... I don't know, and it feels like I just can't know.

[Mark_Fine]

Archie,
Thanks for chiming in. By the way, what was the distance to the half acre on #7 from the back tee?  I know it has now been lengthened.


Yes caddies will look for balls but you played there enough so you know what I am talking about.  Before they cleared out a lot of the understory, it was often not worth looking and as I said, what do you do if you find the ball?  I tend to feel I make more doubles there than at any other course and not many bogies. If you miss with your tee shot or your approach, recoveries are tough.  I am sure you remember what #5 was like if you missed that green.  Good luck extracting yourself from the woods IF you could find your ball.  I am not in love with the changes there but you can now find your golf ball and have some kind of recovery shot. 

[Ira Fishman]

Mark,


You repeatedly have asserted that GD raters are driven away from here. Yes, I know that you are no longer one after many years of you belonging to that club. Has it ever occurred to you that your need to post/lecture about PV, Oakmont, ANGC, CPC, Gil Hanse, restorations v renovations, and historical research has become so tedious and repetitive that others are driven away? And trust me, I know that I am guilty of repeating stories.


Ira

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
If you got out and played a few more courses you might find some of this more interesting and be able to comment intelligently and add to the threads.
 
I have been posting on this site for about 25 years and during that time there will be a lot of things that get repeated.  There are also a lot of people visiting this site for the first time and all of this is new to them.  I am reminded of a manager at Disney reminding one of his team members, “When someone asks you where the closest restroom is for the two hundred time today, do not forget it is the first time that person asked you the question.” 


Ira you might benefit from letting your wife participate on this site vs you as she seems to play the same courses you do and might be more observant of what she sees when she plays them 


By the way, in 25 years, this is the first thread I ever started about Pine Valley and why it is a consensus #1.  Maybe it will make more people think about bashing all the Top 100 lists and those who do their best to provide their feedback to create them.

[Ira Fishman]

Mark,


I don’t know what century you live in, but my wife does not need my permission to “let” her express her opinions about anything. I am blessed that she loves golf such that we have played great courses all over the world without being raters.


Ira

[archie_struthers]

 


Got a little axe to grind with Mark as to the caddies , but it's all in good fun.  When I worked there we always had one guy out front to fore-caddie, including the par 3 fifth hole. Whenever possible the guy who stayed on the green pushed out to a middle ground to give more coverage. The scrub (gronkle) is certainly less fierce today, so the need to be out front may have lessened a bit.


Mark back  to  the seventh hole. In the 1985 Walker Cup , my last year there, the tee shot played a little under 275 to the end of the fairway. I'm going to say the carry over Hell's Half acre wasn't one hundred but exactly 104 yards across at the shortest point. DEAD CENTER . I always thought you could on a crazy day reach it in two, but the really long drivers had to lay up on their tee shot so it stayed virginal for the longest time unlike fifteen, as crazy as that may seem, with 15 being 600 yards  and uphill

[Mark_Fine]

Ira,
Lucky for you both to play all that golf without having to be one of those horrible “raters”!  All those raters are just out there for free golf and want to brag about where they played. I am sure you feel like everyone one else that they all should be banned    Then again maybe if you had a clue what you are looking at you could be one of them and contribute to these lists so they would finally get them right 

Archie,
Thanks for your insight on PV. I hope you don’t get ostracized for posting so much about a high profile course like PV that you happen to have played a lot and know very well.  Someone will think you are being pretentious 

I remembered the distance to reach the acre back then wasn’t terribly far and even I thought twice about hitting a driver some days as I knew the next shot was for position and I just needed to get over the acre (and it is hard to do that from anywhere but the fairway).  When Forrest and I wrote our book on Hazards, we mapped out that hole in 2003 and the distance to the acre at that time was 315 yards, the acre was 95 yards to carry and then you had 180 yards to the green. 

Getting back to the caddies; they are great and good fun to go around with.  But the straighter you are the happier they are 


One more side point of architectural interest (at least to some), Flynn who was seconded by Wilson at Merion to work at PV when Crump died to help complete the last four holes that Crump never saw finished, got the idea for interrupted fairways from his eight years of experience there.  He actually laid out multiple interrupted fairways for courses including his design at Cherry Hills CC but ended up not incorporating most of them in the final design (he did use one however on the 17th hole which is closely patterned after Pine Valley’s 7th).  If you had just followed his drawings and not done more research in a restoration you would have not resorted what Flynn ended up building. Just food for thought and sorry to Ira and any others if I mentioned this sometime in the past.  Maybe someone new here who didn’t see it before will find it interesting 

[archie_struthers]

 


Pretentious , I can barely spell it 


Certainly I do love to talk about my time at Pine Valley. Unique in that I was blessed to be the only caddy ever to be a professional there too!  Hoped to be a member someday in my younger days , but alas it didn't come to pass.


My enthusiasm for the place is all about my love for golf and the realization that I was afforded an opportunity to see arguably the very best golf course ever built in such close detail. Also to see it behind the curtain and realize how much work it has taken to keep it "special".  Little did I know that when Charley offered me the job in the shop would it would open up entrees to places in golf that people would never get. Particularly coming from my socioeconomic beginnings. So whenever I can share some insights into PVGC that other golf afficionados won't have it's great fun for me. Tom Paul and I used to talk for hours on end about the evolution of the course and just how amazing the genesis of it's coming to be. Crump and his collaborators , including my favorite Mr Flynn just hit it perfect in this crazy little corner of the world.


As I sit here approaching my 69th birthday I can still remember shots hit by my players when I caddied there in the late 70's and early 80's . So vivid are the memories that it amazes me to this day. So if I get a little carried away gushing about the place , forgive me!
Other than personal remembrances and Secretariat's electrifying performances , not much more fun for me than playing there and watching others take their shot. Still hoping I have one more great round there , but time is beginning to wane [size=78%]  [/size]

[mike_malone]

As to interrupted fairways and Flynn , he designed two at Rolling Green on 17 and 18 but didn’t do them as far as I can see. Wayne Morrison thinks they did 18.
Interestingly they are at 150 from the green not in the landing zone.

[Mark_Fine]

Archie,
Post all you want about PV.  I love your comments (even if you repeat them from time to time)    Hopefully we can tee it up again together (maybe even at PV)!


Mike,
Yes Flynn often had intentions in his drawings to incorporate interrupted fairways but didn’t always build them.  I hear and read about restoration work being done based on a set of original drawings having been found and I shake my head.  Not just with Flynn but with most all Golden Age Architects, their drawings were only conceptual and not as built. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Pretentious , I can barely spell it 


Certainly I do love to talk about my time at Pine Valley. Unique in that I was blessed to be the only caddy ever to be a professional there too!  Hoped to be a member someday in my younger days , but alas it didn't come to pass.


My enthusiasm for the place is all about my love for golf and the realization that I was afforded an opportunity to see arguably the very best golf course ever built in such close detail. Also to see it behind the curtain and realize how much work it has taken to keep it "special".  Little did I know that when Charley offered me the job in the shop would it would open up entrees to places in golf that people would never get. Particularly coming from my socioeconomic beginnings. So whenever I can share some insights into PVGC that other golf afficionados won't have it's great fun for me. Tom Paul and I used to talk for hours on end about the evolution of the course and just how amazing the genesis of it's coming to be. Crump and his collaborators , including my favorite Mr Flynn just hit it perfect in this crazy little corner of the world.


As I sit here approaching my 69th birthday I can still remember shots hit by my players when I caddied there in the late 70's and early 80's . So vivid are the memories that it amazes me to this day. So if I get a little carried away gushing about the place , forgive me!
Other than personal remembrances and Secretariat's electrifying performances , not much more fun for me than playing there and watching others take their shot. Still hoping I have one more great round there , but time is beginning to wane [size=78%]  [/size]

Archie,


Just curious. Did you know the caddy for Bob Lewis in the Walker Cup? I’m pretty sure he was also Bob’s caddy when he set the competitive course record.


Tim

[archie_struthers]

 


Tim , 98% percent sure it was Joe Falkenstein (RIP)   Good guy , serious looper.  He was always his caddy in the member guest also.
Lewis could really move it for a guy who probably didn't weigh 150 lbs.

[Ira Fishman]

Ira,
Lucky for you both to play all that golf without having to be one of those horrible “raters”!  All those raters are just out there for free golf and want to brag about where they played. I am sure you feel like everyone one else that they all should be banned    Then again maybe if you had a clue what you are looking at you could be one of them and contribute to these lists so they would finally get them right 

Mark,


I have routed exactly the same number of courses as you have.


Raters are raters. Some know architecture well; some do not. It is what it is.


Ira

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim , 98% percent sure it was Joe Falkenstein (RIP)   Good guy , serious looper.  He was always his caddy in the member guest also.
Lewis could really move it for a guy who probably didn't weigh 150 lbs.

Archie,


That name sounds familiar.


Let me also share my “it’s a small world” Pine Valley version.


In the late 80s/early 90s I lived in Long Beach, CA and my next door neighbor became my golfing buddy.


One night I was having drinks with him and his wife and we got into a Pine Valley discussion. So I happened to mention the famous Woody Platt story and his wife spoke up saying:


“I remember him…..he was my father’s favorite golfing buddy”.


What are the odds!