GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group
How important is the scorecard yardage?
Mark_Fine:
I modified the thread subject to be scorecard "yardage".
Holes can play very different from different yardages. What might be considered a slog from one yardage, might be extremely interesting from a different one. I could list dozens of examples of holes that are completely different holes from different angles and yardages. The ultimate target might be static, but how you approach/attack that target might be very different. Take one example, the 12th at Augusta National. From 80-100 yards, would most still play away from a right hole location vs from 145-150 yards? Temptation comes much more into play. Just one example to think about. I know many of my home course holes play very differently from different yardages. And of course a lot depends on the player.
Sean_A:
--- Quote from: Mark_Fine on Yesterday at 04:26:07 PM ---
Take a design like Sebonack on Long Island, NY or Hoiana Shores in Vietnam. Both have no formal tees (the markers could be set literally anywhere). As such the holes can play an infinite number of different yardages. Angles of play can also change significantly as well on many of the holes. You might think a par four is great from 430 yards but truly exceptional from 325 yards. The informal teeing grounds allow for this variety.
So how do you evaluate courses like these? Does the arbitrary scorecard yardage take precedent and if so why? How could anyone ever say the par threes are all similar yardages or there were no risk/reward par fives or driveable par fours, …? Frankly they can’t because the starting locations vary each day and are left to the whims of the grounds crew or golf committee or Head Pro,…
Note: I have mentioned in previous threads the technology exists to calculate handicaps from any starting location. This will be become more common over the next few years.
--- End quote ---
I recently played a course like this. The card was empty of info. There were nominal tee markers on the course, but only the short holes had the yardage on them…hand written for the day. It wasn’t that difficult to see what was happening for most teeing areas…which was often short grass near the previous green. A few holes required a walk to check out the differences. Honestly, we should be experiencing radically different angle tee shots far more often…especially given the huge amount of acreage used for golf these days. My home club is exceptional in offering angles off the tee and yet it is rarely mentioned by critics, panelist’s etc. I don’t think that many people pay much attention to parts of courses they aren’t playing on.
Ciao
Thomas Dai:
Scorecard yardage also reflects as measured course yardage.
I may be incorrect but my understanding is that under the WHS, or maybe it’s the U.K. interpretation, there is a limited daily yardage variance that can be applied to a measured course in order for scores achieved that day to qualify for handicapping purposes. This is for competition play and general play. I believe the variance permitted is 100 yards spread over all 18-holes. There is a short dispensation period during the winter when more teeing ground flexibility is allowed due to a suspension in scoring for WHS purposes.
The above is my understanding of how things operate in the U.K. Other countries may well handle matters differently.
Atb
Mark_Fine:
One of the main reasons I raise this question is I have played with golfers/course raters etc who are reviewing/critiquing a course and say, “all the par threes are about the same length, there aren’t enough short or long par fours, or the par fives are all too long or too short, …”. I remember standing on one hole, a par three, and the one guy says, “this hole is the same club as I hit on the last par three.” I look back and there is a tee option 30 yards behind me and another one 40 yards in front!! Why should a course (especially one designed with informal teeing areas) ever get dinged for lack of shot variety just because the tee markers are set at similar lengths or the card yardage says what it says? If a par four has design flexibility for example to play as long 470 to as little as 310 yards is it considered a long hole or a short one? Why should just what it says on the scorecard dictate the answer considering the architect was clever enough to design that kind of elasticity and variety into the hole!
I believe we shouldn’t let defined starting points, especially what the scorecard says e.g “the maroon tees are 6600 yards and the blue tees are 6250,..:” have such a strong influence on our perceptions of and the quality of a design.
Let me put it one more way, you go visit a course like Sebonack or Hoiana Shores and you walk to the first hole and there are no tee makers (actually there are no tee markers anywhere on the golf course). You might have a scorecard that says total yardage for each hole from the absolute tips but that is it. Your host says, have fun and to tee it up wherever you like. How would you evaluate such a design?
Jim_Coleman:
How can one get a legitimate handicap on a course that hasn’t been rated from a given set of tees?
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