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Ben Hollerbach

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Re: New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2024, 10:02:29 AM »
Blake,
I consulted for the owner during the early planning on the project.


Ben,


I think we can understand the Lido project - the original was considered among the
World’s very best course - but why El Boqueron? What is the appeal for the developer?

Tim,

I believe there are multiple facets of El Boqueron that are appealing. Beyond the mystique of a lost MacKenzie design, what MacKenzie drew up 100 years features quite a number design features that we today would consider relatively modern. The concept of a compact reversible routing with large and wildly undulating greens offers a recipe for a wonderful playground and a playing opportunity that has the potential to resemble a larger scale original Sheep Ranch.


Considering the multiple El Boqueron titled discussions and dozens upon dozens of references to the original course in the archives of this website, I believe many here understand the appeal of El Boqueron as well.

Tim_Weiman

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club
« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2024, 10:58:54 AM »
Ben,


Thanks. In the years ahead I will be spending a couple months in Aiken each winter and would certainly plan to see this course. The Mackenzie angle makes it more appealing than 21’s idea for the first course.
Tim Weiman

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club
« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2024, 01:32:31 PM »
King-Collins draws up South Carolina’s 21 Golf ClubNow underway in the Carolina Sandhills is 21 Golf Club, a private enclave 15 miles from Aiken, South Carolina which will feature 36 holes. The first 18-hole layout, called the Hammer Course, will be a match play-oriented spread designed by Tad King and Rob Collins, the team that authored Tennessee’s Sweetens Cove and Nebraska’s Landmand. Collins envisions a special creation, based on the quality of the site itself.
“Opportunities of this stature in the world of golf course architecture are precious few,” said Collins. “The land which 21 Golf Club sits is a geologic anomaly in the Southeastern United States. The combination of the boldness of the terrain with its deep, deep sandy soils and the seemingly endless and uninterrupted views offer a rare tapestry for our team. We plan to deliver one of the most exceptional and distinctive experiences in American golf.”
The first course to be built will be 21 Golf Club’s dedicated match-play course, the Hammer Course. Its name refers to the popular game of Hammer, which many view as the ultimate expression of match-play golf. In keeping with the traditions of the game, the Hammer Course will demand boldness, creativity and skillful execution. As King-Collins successfully accomplished at Sweetens Cove and Landmand, the Hammer Course will allow players to choose from several teeing areas to alter each hole’s routing on the fly. Angles, yardage, and par can all be adjusted to whatever best suits the moment. Plans call for an additional three holes to be added to the design. These extra holes will serve to decide matches not settled after a traditional 18-hole round, creating a competitive environment unlike any other.
Following completion of the Hammer Course, 21 Golf Club will begin planning work on its second course, inspired by Alister MacKenzie’s original plans for El Boqueron (the famed Lost MacKenzie) in Argentina.
In addition to its two golf courses, 21 Golf Club will include a state-of-the-art practice and performance center developed in cooperation with Black Cat Design, as well as a short course.


https://www.firstcallgolf.com/design-notes/feature/2024-01-10/king-collins-draws-up-south-carolinas-21-golf-club

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Peter Flory

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club
« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2024, 04:03:59 PM »
I noticed in a prior article that they referenced that the El Boq plans had greens averaging 35,000 sf.  That's not actually true when you lay the plans over the original plot.  I show that they average 22,360 with a range of 16,360 to 25,660. 


The greens at the Old Couse average 22,267.  So that is a perfect comparison to get a feel for the scale. 


The El Boq footprint was about 73 acres vs about 92 for the Old Course.  5,152 yards vs 7,313 (Open yardage).  And the old Sheep Ranch was about 83 acres, so right in between.


So from a safety standpoint, the El Boq greens should be large enough that people won't be hitting into each other, especially with so many short irons.  And it's tough to decipher the AM green plans completely, but there are obvious sections that provide for a lot of separation within the greens. 

Michael Chadwick

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club
« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2024, 04:16:38 PM »
I can only hope some 21 Club founders lurk on this site, because Peter should likely have an advisory role on the basis of what he did with Lido.
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Peter Flory

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2024, 06:44:33 PM »
I don't have any special knowledge about it, other than merging the plan over google Earth.  Once you do that, you have the exact dimensions and the elevations.  All of the sculpting that Mackenzie would have done would have presumably been at the green complexes and those are subject to interpretation from the plans.  Mike DeVries put a lot of thought into that aspect of it.

The original site was basically a tilted plane with about 110 feet of tilt with the clubhouse on the high side in the middle.  So, it's kind of unique.  I don't think that the exact magnitude of the tilt matters that much, but it seems like you'd want to have the same general tilt so that the holes have similar dynamics to what they were designed to have. 

I don't know what Ben's involvement was, but I'm sure that it was helpful. 





Michael Chadwick

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 06:09:57 PM »
Today, LINKS Magazine posted to Instagram that ground has been broken on 21 Club's MacKenzie Course, which is inspired from the plan of El Boquerón.


More interestingly, the post seems to make clear that while King/Collins/Dormer will be building the regulation Hammer course for the club, it doesn't seem like they're involved with the MacKenzie. A "MacKenzie Architectural Committee" was formed, and the only name specifically referenced is Brian Zager. Zager's hiring is exciting and interesting, given his background with the Lido's translation from the digital to the real world.


But how will Brian's technical background translate to a course that was unbuilt? Was the plan laid on the purported original site in Argentina (as Peter referenced in the past), and the property outside Aiken will be bulldozed until it resembles the original setting's elevation profile? How will the three dimensional forms of the greens and features be interpreted from a drawing?


Don't get me wrong, I'm quite pleased Zager gets this opportunity, and the course will make for a different flavor to 21 Club overall for prospective members, since I was under an initial impression the King/Collins/Dormer would possibly be the ones constructing both courses. But, even with a MacKenzie team in place, it doesn't strike me as clear of a project compared to how Lido was able to be faithfully triangulated with 3D data points on the basis of original photography. Hopefully Brian, or others involved, can chime in on the complexities, artistic liberties, and opportunities the project will provide.   
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:54:09 PM by Michael Chadwick »
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Michael Chadwick

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: New "El Boqueron" Inspired Course - 21 Golf Club
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 11:31:14 PM »
I'm porting over some of the seemingly important posts from a different El Boqueron thread; mainly, the overlays Peter Flory attempted to do situating MacKenzie's plan to a parcel on the estate. Doesn't look like the images will transfer, so here also is the link to the other thread (page 6 and 7 especially): https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38874.msg1627093.html#msg1627093




It looks like a total elevation change from the clubhouse to the 3rd tee of about 120 feet (clubhouse is high and 3rd tee is low).  I adjusted the overlay just slightly to get to the original aspect ratio of Mackenzie's drawing.  I had the original a fraction too tall for the given width.  With the corrected aspect ratio, the 8th/ 10th green sits just below a rounded boundary in the field.  It looks logical the way that it sits now.  That field above it was probably someone else's or was put to use somehow and Mackenzie routed around it.  Calculations for hole lengths and elevation changes:1) 307  -192) 347  -603) 324  +264) 214  -135) 136  +256) 307  +157) 157  -48. 369  +89) 385  +412,54610) 359  -3311) 352  +412) 155  +1413) 366  -2014) 153  -3015) 244  +1016) 270  -1717) 376  +6818) 331  +192,606TOT 5,152, Par 67There looks like lots of room for lengthening if so desired.


Hopefully I'm not clogging up this thread with wild (and incorrect) theories, but here is another one that I'm talking myself into.Reasons why I like this one:- It fits nicely in the boundaries of a field/ pasture that isn't forested.- The building that could have been the planned clubhouse fits perfectly in the rectangle that Mackenzie drew... however, it looks like that is only because they expanded that building in 2011.  Before that, it only took up half of the rectangle... because it might have been the house in those articles.  I'll put a picture of it below.  - It looks like there is also a structure in the exact spot where there was the mystery building on the routing (blue square in the middle of the pic), although it is obscured.  There are smaller structures visible around it in certain aerials.  - The drawing seems square to the bottom property line and the boundaries of the field- so it is a logical orientation to draw it.- The 9th hole dogs nicely with the edge of the plot- The 9th hole and especially the 10th hole are arranged so that tee shots would carry the road.  The 10th tee is really quite a ways from the 9th green, so maybe that is the reason?  Also, 1 and 18 both easily carry the road.  I am surmising that the road was there when Mackenzie drew the plans because of that internal building.  So, not only does this footprint have the internal structure and forest around it, but the access roads to it avoid greens and tees nicely.  - the doglegs seem more naturally tilted in this solution than the last one that I posted.  9 has a gentle bank to it for instance.  With this footprint, the 18th hole is 330 yards and the 9th is about 400 yards.  Here is a more zoomed out image to give orientation:Original building that was in the location site for this theory.  At or around 2011, it looks like they significantly added on to this structure.  In that case, the original portion is still there, just a part of a bigger building.  Notice the dormer on the roof.  I think that matches the photo of the clubhouse where the plans were stored.  There is a nice yard there and room for the photographer to stand to take the pic from the top of this photo back toward the house. 


Dai just sent me some really great info to upload here (sent to him by Neil Crafter in Adelaide).  - Golf Illustrated article dated March 28th, 1930 by Henry Cotton about traveling to and playing the actual course that was built at El Boqueron (in the next post, I show the text, so don't strain too hard to read this).  It was built in the exact footprint where the Mackenzie course was planned.  He played with Aubrey Boomer, who was the brother of Percy Boomer.  Aubrey was a great player.  Percy was more known as a teacher and was an early adopter of stop-action photography for instruction.  - Historical aerial showing the Percy Boomer designed course that was actually built there- Historical aerial with lines drawn in to highlight the routing of the holesI took the historic aerials and un-skewed them over google earth, so I'll attach some transparencies to show how it locked into the land and the differences between actual and the Mackenzie plan.  Looking from the right side of the course up toward the EstanciaActual course vs Mackenzie plansAnd here is the Mackenzie routing with topo lines (10 foot increments with the clubhouse being high and everything going downhill from there.
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