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Sam Morrow

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Golf Digest Best New
« Reply #75 on: Today at 07:09:46 PM »
Matt, it's always gonna go on but I wish we could actually discuss the golf and the architecture.
I will try to "be the change I want to see" then. I'll start adding some threads on some of Club TFE's course profiles to balance out these dumb list threads. I don't Andy & Co's system is perfect, but they very obviously care more about celebrating places than the lists do.


I do enjoy their stuff and you can tell they genuinely love golf.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: Golf Digest Best New
« Reply #76 on: Today at 07:12:07 PM »
Derek I am surprised you continue to post but wish it was more your architecture based thoughts vs defending yourself.  This site sadly won’t allow that  :-[


What is preventing anyone on this site from saying anything (within reason) on any topic?
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -15
Re: Golf Digest Best New
« Reply #77 on: Today at 07:43:38 PM »
Kevin,
The constant abuse is what holds some people back (ask Derek).  Why would he bother to share his expertise?  There are many of us questioning this right now and have said as much to Ran.  The quality of discussions on this site has diminished dramatically over the last several years. It is a shame but a sign of the times as their is little mutual respect any more for different opinions.

Sam Morrow

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Golf Digest Best New
« Reply #78 on: Today at 08:22:41 PM »
Kevin,
The constant abuse is what holds some people back (ask Derek).  Why would he bother to share his expertise?  There are many of us questioning this right now and have said as much to Ran.  The quality of discussions on this site has diminished dramatically over the last several years. It is a shame but a sign of the times as their is little mutual respect any more for different opinions.


Mark, your statement probably won't be well received but it's 100% true.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: Golf Digest Best New
« Reply #79 on: Today at 08:25:22 PM »
Mark, I have been on the site since day 1 (or maybe 30), and complaints like yours have been constant.


A regular piece of advice for new members back in the day was "have a thick skin".  That hasn't changed.  No one is telling anyone that their kid is ugly...it is just golf course architecture so have an opinion and be prepared to defend it if you go against the grain.


See TD's new post on the also-rans in the Best New.  He's never afraid to offer "frank commentary."
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 16
Re: Golf Digest Best New
« Reply #80 on: Today at 08:39:39 PM »
Kevin,
The constant abuse is what holds some people back (ask Derek).  Why would he bother to share his expertise?  There are many of us questioning this right now and have said as much to Ran.  The quality of discussions on this site has diminished dramatically over the last several years. It is a shame but a sign of the times as their is little mutual respect any more for different opinions.


Mark:


As is often the case, I don't agree with you on this.


Derek is in an unusual position . . . his career is with GOLF DIGEST, and that is what makes it hard for him to just express his opinions . . . it's not the "constant abuse" but the fact that he has never been on here to say what he thinks and earn people's respect.  Ron Whitten struggled to participate here for much the same reasons, and in some respects, so did Ran for the last few years, once he became the head of one of the ranking panels.  They've got to write up whatever their panelists voted as the gospel, even if they personally disagree with it, and defend their methods and the honor of their publication, because it is their job.


Likewise, many golf course superintendents and club professionals lurk on the site but struggle to participate, for the same reason.  They can't talk out of school about their jobs or their bosses.  Same for young design associates with most firms . . . there is nobody on here who works for Gil Hanse, and only an occasional post from a couple of the guys who work for Coore & Crenshaw.  That certainly isn't because I'm holding them back.


Golf course architects may struggle, too . . . there are times when I can't say anything about a certain project because the client wants to control the narrative.  Generally, I have a lot of leeway in that regard because of my reputation, and my clients know that I'm going to say what I think, but there are times when it's hard to do.  But there are a lot of architects who think it's unprofessional to criticize others' work, which leaves . . . a lot of platitudes about how great Pine Valley is.  ;) ;D


No doubt there are some personal issues between some of the DG participants here, and we would all be better off without it.  But that's not new to the site . . . Mucci and Tom Paul used to get so wound up arguing with each other that Ran would have to make them sit in the corne, and God knows how many times John Kavanaugh was suspended.  But each of them contributed more to the discussion than 90% of the people still around here.  Nobody likes a critic, but isn't that the whole reason we're here?

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -15
Re: Golf Digest Best New
« Reply #81 on: Today at 08:46:36 PM »
Kevin and Tom,
I have been on this site almost as long as you both and you have to have seen how it has evolved.  Tom Paul, who I know well and who still will occasionally contact me about posts on this site (but won’t participate anymore) and Pat definitely got into heavy discussions/debates but there is a difference between disagreement and disrespect.  Maybe we disagree on that as well but I will leave it at that.