Misinformation about Seminole

[Mark_Fine]

There are old threads that someone smarter than me can pull up where we talked about Seminole and how it had been changed over the years.  I had long discussions about the course in the past with Ron Whitten who did a lot of investigative work on the course.  I don’t intend to stir the pot again but do appreciate Hal chiming in to set the record straight about some of the changes.  The was intense debate in the past (even beyond debate we have had about the non-Ross turtleback greens at Pinehurst #2) 

This is a great example of why doing thorough research is so important in restoration work. It is NOT easy and sometimes yields inconclusive results but still needs to be done.  You wouldn’t believe how many times I have talked to someone who told me they just played a great Donald Ross course or George Thomas course or a … course and didn’t realize there was little left of the original design outside of the routing. 

[Hal Hicks]

   So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?

From my understanding, half the golf course will be raised this year and the other half next year.  A lot has changed at Seminole in
the last 8 years.  All the trees have been removed, the dunes are being raked daily and manicured, and the course is being maintained more like a park than a links style golf course.  Coore and Crenshaw renovated all the bunkers between 2017 and 2020.
Now from my understanding Gil Hanse will be renovating the bunkers, greens, fairway designs, grassing, irrigation system etc.  There seems to be a trend in the United States where many classic golf courses are being totally renovated by Architects such as Gil Hanse, Andrew Green and others.  From my personal experience at Seminole, the only resemblence to Donald Ross is the routing.  The course was radically changed by Dick Wilson after the passing of Donald Ross.  Since that time design work has been performed by Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and John Martin, and now Gil Hanse.

Does Seminole plan to use the technology that they used at The Lido to recreate the Donald Ross course or let Gil do his version? Seems like Seminole has the old photos that would allow it to be recreated.

Joel,


    It was always amazing to me but there are almost no pictures of Seminole that Donald Ross originally designed. Most of the pictures that are in the historical books at Seminole are more "society type" pictures of people.  I am not aware of how Gil Hanse is going to proceed with his work at Seminole.  But from past experience, the work performed will be under the approval of the Club President and supervision of the Green Chairman who is on site almost daily.  The architects in this group can make comments but my impression is that any renovation to the top golf courses in the United States involves considerable input from the top leaders of the club. It will definitely be a renovation and not a restoration due to almost no historical pictures or documents!

[Mark Bourgeois]

So there’s no plan to return 3 and 18 greens to the original Donald Ross locations?

[Chris Hughes]

   So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?

From my understanding, half the golf course will be raised this year and the other half next year.  A lot has changed at Seminole in
the last 8 years.  All the trees have been removed, the dunes are being raked daily and manicured, and the course is being maintained more like a park than a links style golf course.  Coore and Crenshaw renovated all the bunkers between 2017 and 2020.
Now from my understanding Gil Hanse will be renovating the bunkers, greens, fairway designs, grassing, irrigation system etc.  There seems to be a trend in the United States where many classic golf courses are being totally renovated by Architects such as Gil Hanse, Andrew Green and others.  From my personal experience at Seminole, the only resemblence to Donald Ross is the routing.  The course was radically changed by Dick Wilson after the passing of Donald Ross.  Since that time design work has been performed by Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and John Martin, and now Gil Hanse.

Does Seminole plan to use the technology that they used at The Lido to recreate the Donald Ross course or let Gil do his version? Seems like Seminole has the old photos that would allow it to be recreated.

Joel,


    It was always amazing to me but there are almost no pictures of Seminole that Donald Ross originally designed. Most of the pictures that are in the historical books at Seminole are more "society type" pictures of people.


That really is hard to believe.


 I am not aware of how Gil Hanse is going to proceed with his work at Seminole.  But from past experience, the work performed will be under the approval of the Club President and supervision of the Green Chairman who is on site almost daily.  The architects in this group can make comments but my impression is that any renovation to the top golf courses in the United States involves considerable input from the top leaders of the club. It will definitely be a renovation and not a restoration due to almost no historical pictures or documents!

Hal, thanks for all the facts based information re: the club, course, and specifically the subject of drainage.


Ran across an interesting Seminole thread from 2010, here:


  https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43296.25.html


I haven't had time to absorb/synthesize all of his design & drainage related info but this guy Pat Mucci seems to be on a parallel path as Hal on the topic...


Fascinating stuff!!

[JC Jones]

"this guy Pat Mucci" is a wonderful way to phrase that.


That was a great thread, if I do say so myself.  But, I can say I am surprised by this narrative around Seminole being more of a Dick Wilson course...


Edit to add:


I won't pretend to know 1 gajillionth of what Hal knows about Seminole.  I find this legitimately curious.  What looking at what Pat was saying back in that old thread (and Pat was often playing Seminole in the winter), is that if Wilson had done more than move the 18th and work on the bunkering, wouldn't that be something the club would know?  And, when I talked to Wilson's associate on the project, what would be his motivation (shortly before his death) to tell me they were instructed not to alter the Ross greens? 


I don't have any of these answers to these questions.

[Niall C]

"this guy Pat Mucci"

Never heard of him.

Niall

[Sean_A]

"this guy Pat Mucci"

That earns an upvote 😎.

Ciao


Never heard of him.

Niall

[Chris Hughes]

"this guy Pat Mucci"

That earns an upvote 😎.

Ciao


Never heard of him.

Niall

Thank you!!

I know I got at least one other upvote at some point last night but obviously fighting a losing battle... 😂

FTR, when they go low I'm turning the other cheek, only upvotes here... 🤙

[Tim Martin]

"this guy Pat Mucci"

That earns an upvote 😎.

Ciao


Never heard of him.

Niall

Thank you!!

I know I got at least one other upvote at some point last night but obviously fighting a losing battle... 😂

FTR, when they go low I'm turning the other cheek, only upvotes here... 🤙

Dare to dream but the upvote was for Niall from Sean.

[Mark Bourgeois]

"this guy Pat Mucci"

That earns an upvote 😎.

Ciao


Never heard of him.

Niall

Thank you!!

I know I got at least one other upvote at some point last night but obviously fighting a losing battle... 😂

FTR, when they go low I'm turning the other cheek, only upvotes here... 🤙

You are absolutely killing it! Not even the Tiger of 2000 USO could catch you at this point!

[Rob Marshall]

Pat Mucci was one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. His presentation often rubbed guys the wrong way but he knew his stuff. I miss him posting here.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Hal, I have only played Seminole a few times. Every time I play the course, I tell myself, "This is the fastest and firmest course I have ever played." It's nice off the tee, but very challenging shots into the greens. Friends have said the same thing. I played it in April of 2023, just a few days after a rain. It still was F&F. Kudos to you and your successor. I don't know how you can do it.

[Hal Hicks]

"this guy Pat Mucci" is a wonderful way to phrase that.


That was a great thread, if I do say so myself.  But, I can say I am surprised by this narrative around Seminole being more of a Dick Wilson course...


Edit to add:


I won't pretend to know 1 gajillionth of what Hal knows about Seminole.  I find this legitimately curious.  What looking at what Pat was saying back in that old thread (and Pat was often playing Seminole in the winter), is that if Wilson had done more than move the 18th and work on the bunkering, wouldn't that be something the club would know?  And, when I talked to Wilson's associate on the project, what would be his motivation (shortly before his death) to tell me they were instructed not to alter the Ross greens? 


I don't have any of these answers to these questions.


JC,


    I think the club is fully aware that the green complexes and bunkering are not original Donald Ross.  Seminole and the Tufts library in Pinehurst have hole by hole drawings and notes included by Ross.  We looked at the original drawings in 1990 when converting the greens from overseeded bent grass to bermuda greens.  The decision in 1990 was to leave the greens exactly as they existed in 1990 in terms of size and contour because of increasing green speeds.  But the original drawings by Ross had considerable internal contour and they were much, much larger.  I am not saying that the greens were built exactly like the drawings in 1929 by Ross team, but they were considerably different in both contour and size than today's greens. I am not saying your man is wrong but somebody at some time definitely changed the greens in my opinion. When moving the #3 and #18 green to its current location, it appears that Dick Wilson tried to maintain the theme of the other greens on the course sloping from back to front with roll off on the edges.  But it would be interesting if any "experts" on Donald Ross greens would call Seminole's greens and bunkering Donald Ross.  I grew up in North Carolina and played Pinehurst #2 many times and those greens are even different today than I grew up playing in the 60's.

[Hal Hicks]

Hal,

Thanks as well for chiming in... a few thoughts on the water table/flooding issue. In my mind, mitigating a problem is different from solving it aka finding a long term solution.

It sounds like its been mitigated quite well with various draining and pumping techniques.  But based on your comment in reply 13, sounds like they are now actively working towards a solution in raising the course (or at least for the next 100 years or so until the water level rises that much more).

Kalen,


  You are probably right on their decision.  But from members of Seminole that I have talked with this will be much more than
raising the floor of the golf course.  It is interesting to me how many top clubs around the country are in what they call a "restoration" when really it is a "renovation" which in a lot of cases changes the character of a golf course.  I will keep updated as the major renovation to Seminole is performed and be interested in changes to bunkers, greens, contours of fairways etc.  Sounds
to me pretty much along the same pattern as projects recently completed like East Lake, Oak Hill, Congressional, Oakland Hills, Oakmont etc.
Would be interested in your thoughts. 

[Hal Hicks]

Hal,


Welcome to GolfClubAtlas. Input from people in the business is always a good thing.


Tim Weiman

Thanks Tim.  Looks like a great group!

[Hal Hicks]

Welcome Hal!  Always good to hear from you.  Thanks for your input.

Hi Mitch,


    Hope you and family doing well!  Really enjoyed our day at Seminole a few years ago!

[Hal Hicks]

So there’s no plan to return 3 and 18 greens to the original Donald Ross locations?

Mark,


    I don't think #3 or #18 green will ever be moved but would never be surprised after all the changes the last 8 years
at Seminole. 

[Michael Chadwick]

But from members of Seminole that I have talked with this will be much more thanraising the floor of the golf course.  It is interesting to me how many top clubs around the country are in what they call a "restoration" when really it is a "renovation" which in a lot of cases changes the character of a golf course.  I will keep updated as the major renovation to Seminole is performed and be interested in changes to bunkers, greens, contours of fairways etc.  Soundsto me pretty much along the same pattern as projects recently completed like East Lake, Oak Hill, Congressional, Oakland Hills, Oakmont etc.

Hal, I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on your point of view yet. You seem to be of the mind that the course as it is currently is more attributable to Dick Wilson than Donald Ross, but at the same time also seem suspicious of how restorations are more like renovations that change the character of the course.

If, as you've implied, the current version of the course is more Wilson, wouldn't it be advantageous for Gil and his team to try to restore more of the Ross character back in the design? Your reference of Oakland Hills is important: their book on Hanse's project, Bringing Ross Back: The Restoration of Oakland Hills, goes through hole by hole detail for how Hanse undid what RTJ Sr. and Rees Jones had done, all under the motivation of reclaiming more of what Ross had first put in the ground. Of course, placement of fairway bunkers and tees have changed to align with modern yardages, but the important element is that the character of what Ross first did was the main priority.

I would trust that Gil's approach to Seminole is not any different, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.   

[Chris Hughes]

"this guy Pat Mucci"

That earns an upvote 😎.

Ciao


Never heard of him.

Niall

Thank you!!

I know I got at least one other upvote at some point last night but obviously fighting a losing battle...

FTR, when they go low I'm turning the other cheek, only upvotes here...

Dare to dream but the upvote was for Niall from Sean.

Dammit man... 

You are absolutely killing it! Not even the Tiger of 2000 USO could catch you at this point!

I seem to remember the inimitable Bill Laimbeer once saying -- "better to be hated than forgotten"...   

Pat Mucci was one of the most knowledgeable posters on this board. His presentation often rubbed guys the wrong way but he knew his stuff. I miss him posting here.

Spot on.

[Hal Hicks]

But from members of Seminole that I have talked with this will be much more thanraising the floor of the golf course.  It is interesting to me how many top clubs around the country are in what they call a "restoration" when really it is a "renovation" which in a lot of cases changes the character of a golf course.  I will keep updated as the major renovation to Seminole is performed and be interested in changes to bunkers, greens, contours of fairways etc.  Soundsto me pretty much along the same pattern as projects recently completed like East Lake, Oak Hill, Congressional, Oakland Hills, Oakmont etc.

Hal, I'm not sure I'm entirely clear on your point of view yet. You seem to be of the mind that the course as it is currently is more attributable to Dick Wilson than Donald Ross, but at the same time also seem suspicious of how restorations are more like renovations that change the character of the course.

If, as you've implied, the current version of the course is more Wilson, wouldn't it be advantageous for Gil and his team to try to restore more of the Ross character back in the design? Your reference of Oakland Hills is important: their book on Hanse's project, Bringing Ross Back: The Restoration of Oakland Hills, goes through hole by hole detail for how Hanse undid what RTJ Sr. and Rees Jones had done, all under the motivation of reclaiming more of what Ross had first put in the ground. Of course, placement of fairway bunkers and tees have changed to align with modern yardages, but the important element is that the character of what Ross first did was the main priority.

I would trust that Gil's approach to Seminole is not any different, but I'd like to hear your thoughts.   

Michael,


    Great comments!  My point is that in its current form, in my opinion, the routing is definitely Ross which I think makes Seminole great and what the course is mostly known from.  But the bunkering and green complexes seem more in line with Dick Wilson's renovation work in the late 40's.  The reason that Wilson was brought in was because the course was let go for 3 years during World War II and then a major hurricane damaged the course.  And add onto that Ross had passed away. So major work had to be done to the course.  As I mentioned, in 1990 we looked hard at Donald Ross original drawings and specific notes for each hole.  The club decided to not change anything when regrassing the greens and kept the course intact.  I would be amazed if the club decided now to "restore" the greens to Ross original design.  The original drawings are not even close to the current greens.  Having said that, I would not be surprised to see Gil Hanse "renovate" the bunkers and some greens (for additional pin placements) more in line with his style than Ross. I am pretty confident the club will not allow Hanse to "restore" the bunkers back
to Ross' notes from 1929 but time will tell.  I thought Coore and Crenshaw did a great job of renovating all the bunkers at Seminole between 2017-2020.  But obviously the members were not happy with the result and decided to go with a more modern and park
like approach to the bunkers with the neat and well maintained look.  Am interested in others opinions but I think the word "restoration" is greatly overused as a license to invoke personal judgement.   

[Mike_Young]

   Pete Dye told me a story many years ago that I think I am remembering correctly. He said an African American from Mississippi (Mr. Johnson, maybe) rebuilt Seminole’s greens many decades ago. Pete met Mr. Johnson and had his portrait painted, which he donated to the club to be hung next to Ross’s portrait. The club declined the offer.
 

Jim,Could it have been Ernest Jones? That's who PD used to talk about shaping the greens there... 
Hal, welcome...you have no idea what you are in for...

[Jeff Schley]

  Am interested in others opinions but I think the word "restoration" is greatly overused as a license to invoke personal judgement.

Hal, you won't find any consensus here for terms such as restoration or renovation.
Actually there is quite spirited discussion in various threads, for pages and pages on just that, you will come to enjoy.

[Hal Hicks]

  Am interested in others opinions but I think the word "restoration" is greatly overused as a license to invoke personal judgement.

Hal, you won't find any consensus here for terms such as restoration or renovation.
Actually there is quite spirited discussion in various threads, for pages and pages on just that, you will come to enjoy.

Thanks Jeff.  Look forward to reading some of the threads.


All the best!

[Hal Hicks]

   Pete Dye told me a story many years ago that I think I am remembering correctly. He said an African American from Mississippi (Mr. Johnson, maybe) rebuilt Seminole’s greens many decades ago. Pete met Mr. Johnson and had his portrait painted, which he donated to the club to be hung next to Ross’s portrait. The club declined the offer.
 

Jim,Could it have been Ernest Jones? That's who PD used to talk about shaping the greens there... 
Hal, welcome...you have no idea what you are in for...

Thanks for the welcome Mike.  Can't wait to see your new course in Vidalia, Georgia this spring.  Great area!


I have talked with Pete Dye about Ernest Jones and he may have been correct.  As you know, Pete was a member of
Seminole and being a noted Architect he probably had considerable knowledge about the history of Seminole.
Again, all I know from my 32 years at Seminole is that the current greens and greenside bunkers are not even
close to Donald Ross original drawings and notes.  Hey, Dick Wilson is one of my favorite golf course architects
of all time so there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Donald Ross routing and Dick Wilson green complexes.
Thats like the best of both worlds and has made Seminole currently the great golf course that it is.  The Golf Digest
video of every hole at Seminole narrated by Nathaniel Crosby is very accurate throughout.  He mentions frequently
the renovation work performed by Dick Wilson and the renovation work on the bunkers performed by Coore and
Crenshaw. 


Cheers!

[Chris Hughes]

So there’s no plan to return 3 and 18 greens to the original Donald Ross locations?

Mark,


    I don't think #3 or #18 green will ever be moved but would never be surprised after all the changes the last 8 years
at Seminole.

Let me venture a guess...new "leadership" was installed about 10 years ago?