Misinformation about Seminole

[Hal Hicks]

Hal Hicks here.  New member.  32 years Golf Course Superintendent at Seminole Golf Club (1989-2021)


Been reading comments about Seminole and thought it was good to comment on some history of Seminole
First of all, Seminole does not have a problem with the water table.  As most of you are probably aware,
Donald Ross came up with a very elaborate way of draining the golf course when built in 1929.  He designed
a drainage/pumping system when built in 1929 that could drain all the lakes on the floor of the golf course.
Over the past 20 years Seminole has spent a huge amount of money installing pumping sites and invested in
a Siphon Drainage System over the entire floor of the golf course which can actually lower the water table
to provide firm and fast playing conditions even in periods of rain.


In addition, the last fifteen years a considerable amount of sand topdressing has been applied during the
5 months the club is closed between mid-May and mid-October.  Over time this obviously raises the floor
of the golf course.  In my opinion, and I have heard it from the top leaders at Seminole, they want to
provide a golf course that never closes during the golf season during rainy periods that may occur during
the winter golf season.  But again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the water table.  Just felt like
the truth should be discussed in these days of misinformation on many topics.

[Keith Phillips]

We need a LIKE button!  Welcome, Hal. Very interesting background.

[Andrew Harvie]

We need a LIKE button!  Welcome, Hal. Very interesting background.

There is one, under the name on the left side you'll see "like | dislike" and the Karma reflects that, but I'm still working on changing Karma to a like system for clarity. I believe you'll only see this on desktop and tablet, not mobile.


Either way, this is a great thread. Welcome Keith!

[PCCraig]

Thanks, Hal. Appreciate the insight.

[Mitch Hantman]

Welcome Hal!  Always good to hear from you.  Thanks for your input.

[Tim_Weiman]

Hal,


Welcome to GolfClubAtlas. Input from people in the business is always a good thing.


Tim Weiman

[Ronald Montesano]

Drew, there is no LIKE / DISLIKE button in Chrome, and lots of us use Chrome.


Hal, welcome, congratulations, and thank you for the information.

[Andrew Harvie]

Drew, there is no LIKE / DISLIKE button in Chrome, and lots of us use Chrome.


Hal, welcome, congratulations, and thank you for the information.

I'm on Chrome, but it seems to be an issue on which roles can view that function. I'll amend! Sorry to distract from the main point.

[Tim Martin]

Welcome Hal! Great first post.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Hal Hicks here.  New member.  32 years Golf Course Superintendent at Seminole Golf Club (1989-2021)


Been reading comments about Seminole and thought it was good to comment on some history of Seminole
First of all, Seminole does not have a problem with the water table.  As most of you are probably aware,
Donald Ross came up with a very elaborate way of draining the golf course when built in 1929.  He designed
a drainage/pumping system when built in 1929 that could drain all the lakes on the floor of the golf course.
Over the past 20 years Seminole has spent a huge amount of money installing pumping sites and invested in
a Siphon Drainage System over the entire floor of the golf course which can actually lower the water table
to provide firm and fast playing conditions even in periods of rain.


In addition, the last fifteen years a considerable amount of sand topdressing has been applied during the
5 months the club is closed between mid-May and mid-October.  Over time this obviously raises the floor
of the golf course.  In my opinion, and I have heard it from the top leaders at Seminole, they want to
provide a golf course that never closes during the golf season during rainy periods that may occur during
the winter golf season.  But again, this has absolutely nothing to do with the water table.  Just felt like
the truth should be discussed in these days of misinformation on many topics.

Hal,

Interesting and glad to have you here.  I was the one talking of the water table, but I was just relaying what Pete Dye told me when I played there.  Either he didn't know about the pumping system, or perhaps the topdressing has improved it over the years.   

[Jim_Coleman]

   So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?

[mike_malone]

 

[Hal Hicks]

No worries!  Pete Dye probably did not understand fully how the drainage system worked at Seminole.  He rarely played at
Seminole my entire career there.

[Hal Hicks]

   So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?

From my understanding, half the golf course will be raised this year and the other half next year.  A lot has changed at Seminole in
the last 8 years.  All the trees have been removed, the dunes are being raked daily and manicured, and the course is being maintained more like a park than a links style golf course.  Coore and Crenshaw renovated all the bunkers between 2017 and 2020.
Now from my understanding Gil Hanse will be renovating the bunkers, greens, fairway designs, grassing, irrigation system etc.  There seems to be a trend in the United States where many classic golf courses are being totally renovated by Architects such as Gil Hanse, Andrew Green and others.  From my personal experience at Seminole, the only resemblence to Donald Ross is the routing.  The course was radically changed by Dick Wilson after the passing of Donald Ross.  Since that time design work has been performed by Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and John Martin, and now Gil Hanse. 

[Mark_Fine]

Hal,
Thanks for posting.  You have confirmed numerous things that have been discussed (and argued here in years part about the golf course in particular about how much Ross is actually left on the golf course).  I will leave it at that for now.


I do love the golf course, only played it once so hard to get full perspective. 


Surprised and not surprised to see such quick changes, but it happens. I recently worked on a course that Gil worked on in Pennsylvania and frankly it needed to change again. There are all kinds of constraints that architects have to work under and around and this is why sometimes change reoccurs quickly.

[Tim_Weiman]

Hal,
Thanks for posting.  You have confirmed numerous things that have been discussed (and argued here in years part about the golf course in particular about how much Ross is actually left on the golf course).  I will leave it at that for now.


I do love the golf course, only played it once so hard to get full perspective. 


Surprised and not surprised to see such quick changes, but it happens. I recently worked on a course that Gil worked on in Pennsylvania and frankly it needed to change again. There are all kinds of constraints that architects have to work under and around and this is why sometimes change reoccurs quickly.

Mark,


Sounds like a topic for an another thread.


Tim

[Jeff Schley]

Hal welcome aboard and thank you for the Seminole information which is one of the gems in the entire country. I noticed you didn't mention GH doing anything with the green specifically.  Do they need to reclaim any size and dimensions? I assume they have shrunk over time and not sure when they last were addressed. Raising them while expanding them seems complex.

[Hal Hicks]

Hal welcome aboard and thank you for the Seminole information which is one of the gems in the entire country. I noticed you didn't mention GH doing anything with the green specifically.  Do they need to reclaim any size and dimensions? I assume they have shrunk over time and not sure when they last were addressed. Raising them while expanding them seems complex.

Most of my information now comes from some members of Seminole.  I have not been back to Seminole since leaving in 2021.  I am told it is a fluid situation concerning what Gil Hanse will do with the greens and green complexes.  Dick Wilson completely renovated the greens/greenside bunkers in the late 40's.  He greatly reduced the size of the greens and installed new "wilson-style" bunkers around the greens at Seminole. I can state that the greens are the same exact size from 1989-2021.  There were a few minor internal tweaks to the greens by Coore/Crenshaw to greens #2, #3, #11 and #13 to gain some pin placements due to green speeds. But as stated previously, the Seminole's greens and greenside bunkers are nothing close to the original Donald Ross 1929 design.  So everything moving forward will continue to be renovation work to meet
the desires of current power at Seminole. 
 

[JC Jones]

Hal,


Thanks for your contribution and that is an interesting take.  I first fell in love with Seminole in 2010 and it remains one of my favorite courses to this day.  At the time I was doing a bunch of research into Seminole's history because Mr. Dodson's great book left me with a few open questions (a few of which I still have yet to answer).


That lead me to a phone conversation with Robert Von Hagge because he was Dick Wilson's associate at the time Wilson was consulting at Seminole.  Mr. Von Hagge was very explicit that although they reworked the bunkering, they were under strict orders to not touch the greens as, in his words, the club felt the Ross greens were "sacrosanct."


In fact, when looking at Seminole's greens, in their current form, compared to other Ross greens of that era of Ross (his re work at #2, Camden CC, etc) there is much similarity.  And, certainly much more similarity than, say, Wilson's original greens up the road at Pine Tree.


So, I am surprised to read you say that the greens are "nothing" like Ross's 1929 design.  I'll need to take a look at all of that again with a new eye.

[Hal Hicks]

Hal,


Thanks for your contribution and that is an interesting take.  I first fell in love with Seminole in 2010 and it remains one of my favorite courses to this day.  At the time I was doing a bunch of research into Seminole's history because Mr. Dodson's great book left me with a few open questions (a few of which I still have yet to answer).


That lead me to a phone conversation with Robert Von Hagge because he was Dick Wilson's associate at the time Wilson was consulting at Seminole.  Mr. Von Hagge was very explicit that although they reworked the bunkering, they were under strict orders to not touch the greens as, in his words, the club felt the Ross greens were "sacrosanct."


In fact, when looking at Seminole's greens, in their current form, compared to other Ross greens of that era of Ross (his re work at #2, Camden CC, etc) there is much similarity.  And, certainly much more similarity than, say, Wilson's original greens up the road at Pine Tree.


So, I am surprised to read you say that the greens are "nothing" like Ross's 1929 design.  I'll need to take a look at all of that again with a new eye.

 


JC,


    Thanks for the welcome.  Page 70 of The Story of Seminole written by James Dobson relates to Ben Hogan being a big fan
of Dick Wilson designs. Hogan loved Pine Tree and I was the Golf Course Superintendent at Pine Tree from 1983-1989 before going to Seminole.  The very first thing that I noticed upon arriving at Seminole was the similarity in design of the green complexes between Pine Tree and Seminole.  Not just the bunkering but several of the greens.  Wilson was prominent in his greens that had angles either from left to right or right to left.  Greens at Seminole such as #2, #5, #6, #8, #11, #12, #13, #15 have similar features.  But the main changes from Dick Wilson's renovation of Seminole, in my opinion, from looking at all the original drawings from Donald Ross is that there is much less contour and size compared to the existing greens.  I think the more you look at both Pine Tree and Seminole the more Dick Wilson's design features and similarities are apparent. 

[Hal Hicks]

Welcome Hal!  Always good to hear from you.  Thanks for your input.

Good to hear from you again Mitch.  Hope all is well with you and family.

[Kalen Braley]

Hal,

Thanks as well for chiming in... a few thoughts on the water table/flooding issue. In my mind, mitigating a problem is different from solving it aka finding a long term solution.

It sounds like its been mitigated quite well with various draining and pumping techniques.  But based on your comment in reply 13, sounds like they are now actively working towards a solution in raising the course (or at least for the next 100 years or so until the water level rises that much more).

[Jim_Coleman]

   Pete Dye told me a story many years ago that I think I am remembering correctly. He said an African American from Mississippi (Mr. Johnson, maybe) rebuilt Seminole’s greens many decades ago. Pete met Mr. Johnson and had his portrait painted, which he donated to the club to be hung next to Ross’s portrait. The club declined the offer.
   

[Jerry Kluger]

I remember a few years back that Pete Dye supervised the raising of Old Marsh Golf Club where they removed all of the grass, brought in truckloads of fill to raise the course and then regressed it.  There is quite an incredible video that Anthony Nysse did of the process including drone shots as he was the greens superintendent at the time and there was Pete Dye supervising the entire operation not too much before he passed away.


It would be great if someone was able to record the work as it is being done at Seminole.

[Joel_Stewart]

   So Gil Hanse has no plans to raise the level of the course?

From my understanding, half the golf course will be raised this year and the other half next year.  A lot has changed at Seminole in
the last 8 years.  All the trees have been removed, the dunes are being raked daily and manicured, and the course is being maintained more like a park than a links style golf course.  Coore and Crenshaw renovated all the bunkers between 2017 and 2020.
Now from my understanding Gil Hanse will be renovating the bunkers, greens, fairway designs, grassing, irrigation system etc.  There seems to be a trend in the United States where many classic golf courses are being totally renovated by Architects such as Gil Hanse, Andrew Green and others.  From my personal experience at Seminole, the only resemblence to Donald Ross is the routing.  The course was radically changed by Dick Wilson after the passing of Donald Ross.  Since that time design work has been performed by Brian Silva, Coore and Crenshaw, Kyle Franz and John Martin, and now Gil Hanse.

Does Seminole plan to use the technology that they used at The Lido to recreate the Donald Ross course or let Gil do his version? Seems like Seminole has the old photos that would allow it to be recreated.