The Riv

[Jim_Coleman]

    No apology needed, Michael.

[Steve Lapper]

    No apology needed, Michael.

Definitely no apology needed!!


Let me remind those whose political leanings might support even an iota of politicization of natural crises and disasters of some of the great quotes of the past:


"Everyone is entitled to his opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

"Facts are stubborn things, and whatever may be our wishes, our inclination, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot altar the state of facts and evidence."  -John Adams


"Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider."  -Francis Bacon

The FACTS here are this tragedy is a perfect storm confluence of hazardous drought conditions, plentiful fuel, vicious winds, and a spark or misplaced flame. No local residential hydrant and reservoir system could effectively combat the scope, scale and speed of this kind of fire. Period.

Statements made by politicians assigning blame here are petty at best and vindictive at worst. As a first hand up close witness to the horrors of 9/11, the lesson is for EVERYONE to come together and recognize the human tragedy that these fires and reflect only sensitivity and human empathy.

[Bernie Bell]

Meanwhile, back on point, does anyone have any information on the status of Riviera? 

[Matt Schoolfield]

Meanwhile, back on point, does anyone have any information on the status of Riviera?

Again, your best bet is Cal Fire: https://www.fire.ca.gov/incidents/2025/1/7/palisades-fire

It appears the fire has advanced toward Riv by maybe one city block, and remains about three blocks away, just with a bit more surface area.

[David_Tepper]

Golf Channel article:




https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/pga-tour-monitoring-los-angeles-fires-with-riviera-event-scheduled-in-one-month

[Rob Marshall]

Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.

It is, but it’s wildly unpopular and not without risk. Honestly the main issue is that people probably just shouldn’t be living in these area, at this mid-level of density. It’s an unpopular view, but the there is a real disconnect here between the homes existing and the unsustainably of insuring the homes. This fire will almost certainly bankrupt the CA FAIR plan insurer of last resort.


The same thing exists in Florida with subsidized federal flood insurance, and the way that is changing.

[Steve Lapper]

Golf Channel article:




https://www.nbcsports.com/golf/news/pga-tour-monitoring-los-angeles-fires-with-riviera-event-scheduled-in-one-month

Based on the proximity and degree of devastation, there's no way RIV should be hosting the Genesis Open. Hotels and even some of the private residences that have always housed players, caddies, and officials are now fully dedicated to housing displaced residents. This room scarcity won't dissipate anytime soon.

That said, the really smart thing from a PGA Tour & Sponsor P.R. perspective would be to cancel the tournament in it's entirety and "co-donate the entire purse" (and possibly even a matching donation--with the heft maybe coming from Tour executives??) to a relief fund for those who have lost everything and will need some form of subsidized housing, and maybe give some of that $$$ to the firefighters who are fighting this so valiantly. The tour could finally earn back some measure of forgiveness from its recent raw pursuit of greed. The cynic in me doubts this will ever happen, but a man can dream

[Tom_Doak]

Based on the proximity and degree of devastation, there's no way RIV should be hosting the Genesis Open. Hotels and even some of the private residences that have always housed players, caddies, and officials are now fully dedicated to housing displaced residents. This room scarcity won't dissipate anytime soon.

That said, the really smart thing from a PGA Tour & Sponsor P.R. perspective would be to cancel the tournament in it's entirety and "co-donate the entire purse" (and possibly even a matching donation--with the heft maybe coming from Tour executives??) to a relief fund for those who have lost everything and will need some form of subsidized housing, and maybe give some of that $$$ to the firefighters who are fighting this so valiantly. The tour could finally earn back some measure forgiveness from its recent raw pursuit of greed. The cynic in me doubts this will ever happen, but a man can dream

This is a lovely thought.  And while I agree with you that the Tour is unlikely to do it, maybe the PIF could fund it as part of their consolidation plan?


As you said, a man can dream !

[Tim Liddy]

Message from a friend at Riviera today, "Apocalyptic type damage and devastation to the entire area.  So many have lost everything, and the fires continue. Fires have not yet reached the club, but only a few blocks away.Will be very touch and go next few days."

[Pete_Pittock]

Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.

The vegetation in California is much different than that found in Florida. It is more flammable and grows back quickly.
Also have to consider the urban interface.

[John Emerson]

Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.

The vegetation in California is much different than that found in Florida. It is more flammable and grows back quickly.
Also have to consider the urban interface.

Exactly. Southern Cali is a desert with millions of acres of material ideal to start a fire. Florida is a swamp. Take away the irrigation water in Socal and everything is brown.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Hotels and even some of the private residences that have always housed players, caddies, and officials are now fully dedicated to housing displaced residents. This room scarcity won't dissipate anytime soon.
That said, the really smart thing from a PGA Tour & Sponsor P.R. perspective would be to cancel the tournament in it's entirety and "co-donate the entire purse" (and possibly even a matching donation--with the heft maybe coming from Tour executives??)

This is a lovely thought.

I don't know that the purse just sort of exists, and the fixed capital costs will be there regardless. The main issue is simply the proximity of the course to the disaster. It may be more feasible (and able to do more good) if the tournament was simply moved to an area with less strain. Possibly a club willing to donate their course in Irving or even San Diego, though that might be obscenely naive on my part.

Call me a heartless consequentialist, and I don't know the finances of the Tour, but I figure we can do more good by moving a revenue positive tournament, and donating those revenues, than we can by simply canceling it.

[Bruce Katona]

Slapper:

I'm loving your idea of scratching the Riviera event & having the PGA Tour donate the purse for relief. 


How about one better (like what occurred during COVID):

Get four marquis players to play an 18 hole event, prize winnings donated to the winners SoCal Charity of Choice for fire relief.  Lots of big companies can sponsor long drive, birdie challanges, closets to the pin, etc since the funds will be donated to a charity and thus become a tax deductible contribution.


I'm thinking there could be a private club - out of the area of damage - that could/would host, with TV coverage - much like Seminole did during COVID.


Just my $0.02

[Jon McSweeny]

https://space-solutions.airbus.com/newsroom/satellite-image-gallery/pleiades-neo/wildfires-in-los-angeles/
That map has basically the same info as the Cal Fire map linked above, but it shows the actual damage in and around Riviera.

[Rob Marshall]

Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.

The vegetation in California is much different than that found in Florida. It is more flammable and grows back quickly.
Also have to consider the urban interface.

Exactly. Southern Cali is a desert with millions of acres of material ideal to start a fire. Florida is a swamp. Take away the irrigation water in Socal and everything is brown.

You must be joking right? South Florida burns every year. A few years ago it got within 100 yards of Hideout. You could smell smoke this week. It rarely rains here in the winter.


https://www.fox13news.com/news/florida-fire-officials-preparing-drought-wildfire-season

[Rob Marshall]

Slapper:

I'm loving your idea of scratching the Riviera event & having the PGA Tour donate the purse for relief. 


How about one better (like what occurred during COVID):

Get four marquis players to play an 18 hole event, prize winnings donated to the winners SoCal Charity of Choice for fire relief.  Lots of big companies can sponsor long drive, birdie challanges, closets to the pin, etc since the funds will be donated to a charity and thus become a tax deductible contribution.


I'm thinking there could be a private club - out of the area of damage - that could/would host, with TV coverage - much like Seminole did during COVID.


Just my $0.02

Saw a report that the losses will be $50 Billion with only $20 billion covered by insurance.

[Michael Morandi]

My insurance agent told me that one of his clients with a $25 million house in California wine country was quoted annual premium of $800k for full insurance. The client decided to “self insure”, a euphemism for taking the risk. I’m sure many LA homeowners did the same.

[Adam G]

It's getting worse. Mandatory evacuation orders just expanded dramatically all the way to 405 from Valley to Sunset.  Warnings all the way to Bel Air CC

[Matt Schoolfield]

It's getting worse. Mandatory evacuation orders just expanded dramatically all the way to 405 from Valley to Sunset.  Warnings all the way to Bel Air CC

More notables: MountainGate CC now under mandatory evac

[Chris Hughes]

Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.

It is, but it’s wildly unpopular...

"Wildly unpopular" with whom?

[Matt Schoolfield]

Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.

It is, but it’s wildly unpopular...

"Wildly unpopular" with whom?

Home owners, the forest service, state agencies, you name it. Fire is dangerous, and accidents happen:

“I think the Forest Service is worried about the risk of something bad happening [with a prescribed burn]. And they’re willing to trade that risk — which they will be blamed for — for increased risks on wildfires,” Wara said. In the event of a wildfire, “if something bad happens, they’re much less likely to be blamed because they can point the finger at Mother Nature.”

https://www.kqed.org/science/1994972/forest-service-halts-prescribed-burns-california-worth-risk

And local communities may oppose a controlled burn, he said.

“It’s hard to wag a finger too much at agencies,” he said. “Getting prescribed fire on the landscape at the scale we’d like is very difficult.”

Some of these concerns are rooted in fears of what could go wrong in a prescribed fire. The U.S. Forest Service has said that over 99 percent of these fires go as planned, but mistakes can be destructive. In 2022, the agency lost control of two prescribed burns in New Mexico. The fires merged and grew to become the largest recorded fire in the state’s history, destroying hundreds of homes.

However, experts say that avoiding these burns can also have consequences.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/07/us/california-controlled-fire.html

Then there is different agencies that have to coordinate, and red tape as far as the eye can see. The palisades fire is on state park land, the Eaton fire is on federal forest land, and Bel Air has little difference in risk profile, but is pretty much all private land. Who's job is it, what happens if someone screws up, how do we coordinate the burns, how do we even do enough if them, who pays for the exteralities of everyone having to breath smoke for a week? It's easy to say "we should do controlled burns" and we should do them obviously, but it's one of those things where there is asymmetric benefit to them for the people who live in extreme risk areas, and it's always somebody else's responsibility. Most people with real concerns just choose not to live in high fire risk zones.

[Steve Lapper]

Hotels and even some of the private residences that have always housed players, caddies, and officials are now fully dedicated to housing displaced residents. This room scarcity won't dissipate anytime soon.
That said, the really smart thing from a PGA Tour & Sponsor P.R. perspective would be to cancel the tournament in it's entirety and "co-donate the entire purse" (and possibly even a matching donation--with the heft maybe coming from Tour executives??)

This is a lovely thought.

I don't know that the purse just sort of exists, and the fixed capital costs will be there regardless. The main issue is simply the proximity of the course to the disaster. It may be more feasible (and able to do more good) if the tournament was simply moved to an area with less strain. Possibly a club willing to donate their course in Irving or even San Diego, though that might be obscenely naive on my part.

Call me a heartless consequentialist, and I don't know the finances of the Tour, but I figure we can do more good by moving a revenue positive tournament, and donating those revenues, than we can by simply canceling it.

Matt,

  The purse is the aggregate pot of $$$ that is paid to all the competitors at any single event. It is pre-determined and negotiated with the sponsor(s) for that event (in the case of Genesis...Hyundai Motor Company). In some, but not all, the events the PGA Tour may contribute in-part to the purse as well. Given the profile of the Genesis stop, I rather doubt it.

  The PGA Tour is a cash cow (now that they no longer face litigation or challenge to their NFP structure), paying its senior executives outlandish multi-million dollar salaries with perks galore. They near fraudulently dole out serious PIP $$$$ into the pockets of their top 10-15 stars, replicating a pay-for-play system designed to enrich only a very few. The fixed capital costs of hosting an event are paid for well in advance, and clubs like Riv that have long hosted events have efficiently solved for this year-after-year.

For them to cancel the tournament, enrich the pot and do the very first thing to combat the egregious greed that defines today's professional golf would be a whole lot easier than moving and holding the event off site. I'm sure the usual yearly spectators would be the first to understand, sympathize and the execs know the loss of one event's four day gate is a pimple on an elephants ass. The Tour could easily, and identically, cover the gate proceeds if held elsewhere.

  Having a good number of college buddies, dear old friends and family living in the devastation zone and knowing how much short and long term trauma will be inflicted on them and so many others, it's incumbent on the corporate world that visits this exact area once a year to step up and do something meaningful (not $100 birdies and $250 eagles!). Before the winds finally subside, the financial and mental toll for this disaster in the most populated county in the USA will be astronomical.

Bruce,

   As usual, your idea is a good one...lets go one better and do both!!

Tom,

   Ditto to the above. For LIV to drop another $25-50M is a rounding error on some of their fading stars contracts. Yassir would add RIV, Bel-Air CC (and possibly even LACC) memberships to his personal roster. The PR effect would be h(y)uge and even the Don could slide into the spotlight on this by claiming he pushed Jay and Yassir to such admirable goal. (note: A touch of NJ cynical sarcasm).

  I know I'm still dreaming, as it makes way too much sense for today's professional golf world to understand.








 

[Rob Marshall]

Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.

It is, but it’s wildly unpopular...

"Wildly unpopular" with whom?

Home owners, the forest service, state agencies, you name it. Fire is dangerous, and accidents happen:

“I think the Forest Service is worried about the risk of something bad happening [with a prescribed burn]. And they’re willing to trade that risk — which they will be blamed for — for increased risks on wildfires,” Wara said. In the event of a wildfire, “if something bad happens, they’re much less likely to be blamed because they can point the finger at Mother Nature.”

https://www.kqed.org/science/1994972/forest-service-halts-prescribed-burns-california-worth-risk

And local communities may oppose a controlled burn, he said.

“It’s hard to wag a finger too much at agencies,” he said. “Getting prescribed fire on the landscape at the scale we’d like is very difficult.”

Some of these concerns are rooted in fears of what could go wrong in a prescribed fire. The U.S. Forest Service has said that over 99 percent of these fires go as planned, but mistakes can be destructive. In 2022, the agency lost control of two prescribed burns in New Mexico. The fires merged and grew to become the largest recorded fire in the state’s history, destroying hundreds of homes.

However, experts say that avoiding these burns can also have consequences.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/07/us/california-controlled-fire.html

Then there is different agencies that have to coordinate, and red tape as far as the eye can see. The palisades fire is on state park land, the Eaton fire is on federal forest land, and Bel Air has little difference in risk profile, but is pretty much all private land. Who's job is it, what happens if someone screws up, how do we coordinate the burns, how do we even do enough if them, who pays for the exteralities of everyone having to breath smoke for a week? It's easy to say "we should do controlled burns" and we should do them obviously, but it's one of those things where there is asymmetric benefit to them for the people who live in extreme risk areas, and it's always somebody else's responsibility. Most people with real concerns just choose not to live in high fire risk zones.

What I would do Matt is leave it to the experts. What's the worse that could happen in hindsight?


If experts said it's not feasible then so be it. If they didn't want to do it to save money then that's on the powers that be. It happens almost every year. They let Canada burn the last two years and didn't even try to stop it so I don't know if there is an environmental reason not to do it.[size=78%]  [/size]

Here is an interesting article

https://www.kqed.org/science/1994972/forest-service-halts-prescribed-burns-california-worth-risk

[MKrohn]

Looking from the other side of the world (Australia) at LA it is hard to comprehend how much devastation has occurred in what appears to be suburban streets.


I grew up in a place where locals (on the suburban fringe) would occasionally lose homes but always thought we would be OK as the fire would have to rip through blocks of suburbia to get us, appears I may have overestimated our safety.


As an aside, back burning is an accepted practice out here, occasionally when you get a wind shift, Sydney can be covered in smoke, people in the main just accept it as a consequence of living where they do.


Hope for all, including one of my favourite places to play that somehow this thing resolves.