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Chris Hughes

Re: The Riv
« Reply #50 on: January 11, 2025, 11:22:37 PM »
Is it not possible to do controlled burns to eliminate some of the debris. That's what they do here in south Florida.
It is, but it’s wildly unpopular...
"Wildly unpopular" with whom?

Home owners, the forest service, state agencies, you name it.




That statement is categorically false.
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Chris Hughes

Re: The Riv
« Reply #51 on: January 11, 2025, 11:36:45 PM »
    No apology needed, Michael.


As a first hand up close witness to the horrors of 9/11, the lesson is for EVERYONE to come together and recognize the human tragedy that these fires and reflect only sensitivity and human empathy.


Plz don't conflate 911 with what happened here -- the two are in no way related.


This thread wasn't political until Michael made it so.
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

Michael Morandi

Re: The Riv
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2025, 10:50:36 PM »
I must be old school. I didn’t think that  fact checking was political. If you say a hole is 436 yards and I have a caddie measure it at 450, and tell you, is that political or does it depend on who the caddie is? Is trust out the window, with us only believing sources who share our biases?

Mike Wagner

Re: The Riv
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2025, 09:26:11 AM »
I must be old school. I didn’t think that  fact checking was political. If you say a hole is 436 yards and I have a caddie measure it at 450, and tell you, is that political or does it depend on who the caddie is? Is trust out the window, with us only believing sources who share our biases?


You might want think about deleting this.

Ben Sims

Re: The Riv
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2025, 10:08:18 AM »
Perhaps *everyone* should refrain from positing on anything related to politics. If something seems even on the periphery upon a cursory proofread, maybe don’t post. And if someone didn’t heed that advice and subsequently you read something that you disagree with politically and it triggers you, maybe consider sitting this one out.


GCA.com is at its best when we can discuss golf architecture and golf architecture adjacent topics without the humdrum of the divided world at the forefront. When it’s used as a place to reinforce and bolster your political position, it poisons it.



MCirba

Re: The Riv
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2025, 10:27:09 AM »
Perhaps *everyone* should refrain from positing on anything related to politics. If something seems even on the periphery upon a cursory proofread, maybe don’t post. And if someone didn’t heed that advice and subsequently you read something that you disagree with politically and it triggers you, maybe consider sitting this one out.


GCA.com is at its best when we can discuss golf architecture and golf architecture adjacent topics without the humdrum of the divided world at the forefront. When it’s used as a place to reinforce and bolster your political position, it poisons it.


This is my New Year's Resolution not only for GCA but for social media and life in general.   


Stick to what you can positively affect is my new mantra.


Thanks, Ben.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

John Kirk

Re: The Riv
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2025, 11:02:54 AM »
Let me riff off Ben's post for a minute...

Politicians, and organizations with political agendas, are experts at identifying subjects that create attention and controversy.  Often these are complex issues for which simple solutions are offered and repeated ad nauseam.  That's the key; really complex human stuff for which there are no simple answers.

I have never seen a worthwhile political post on GCA.  A serious analysis of these types of problems takes hours to research, study and debate.  In a forum that encourages succinct contributions, political arguments inevitably start with an paragraph or two on a hot topic, followed by an infinite series of "You're wrong, no, you're wrong!"

I have been a member of GCA for over 20 years, and I am not considered an original member of this longstanding and successful discussion group.  The group polices itself and has done a fine job of minimizing political animosity.  We have a highly intelligent group of golf course enthusiasts with a wide range of political beliefs.  People who have been around here for a few years know where most people generally stand on politics.  The camaraderie that we have built among our membership is based on an unspoken understanding about politics, and is something to be proud of.





Michael Morandi

Re: The Riv
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2025, 02:33:38 PM »
Ok. So no posts about Seminole needing to be elevated to fend off rising water levels; no posts about holes falling into the sea in the UK and Ireland. No mention of climate change impacts on architecture because climate change is political. I posted a fact check of claims being made about water policy in California because water policy impacts golf courses but because someone(s) thought it was political owing to the guy making the claims, it’s hands off

Matt Schoolfield

Re: The Riv
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2025, 03:07:34 PM »
I also know that talking about talking about politics is even further off topic. I have thoughts, but first I want to try and give a bit of an update to the situation here to offer an opportunity to get back on track:

It looks like the fire lines in the Palisades fires are holding for now, but the winds will be picking up until at least Wednesday. This will likely be north of the existing fires, but they have issued a "Particularly Dangerous Situation" warning (the worst possible), across an areas that contains notable golf courses, including Rustic Canyon, and others between Calabasas and the Ojai Valley.

I don't know many of the courses in this area aside from Rustic Canyon, but if anyone is familiar with them, I would like to know which are prominent.

--------

On politics, I'm would want to push back. Politics is not just some topic to be discussed or not discussed. It is about ideas of how we should be living our lives, whether it's about fire prevention policies (which is obviously worryingly off-topic), or golf course development policies (which are entirely relevant here).

As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. I worry that this discussion forum lacks comity, and that that results in conflict avoidance which expresses itself as an Overton window of consensus orthodoxy. I know I'm occasionally noisy with some heterodox opinions here, but I really try hard to present them civilly.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 03:40:22 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Mark Pearce

Re: The Riv
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2025, 04:04:27 AM »
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. I worry that this discussion forum lacks comity, and that that results in conflict avoidance which expresses itself as an Overton window of consensus orthodoxy. I know I'm occasionally noisy with some heterodox opinions here, but I really try hard to present them civilly.
On another thread recently a poster suggested that we shouldn't be comparing modern architects' bunkering "out of respect".  I haven't agreed with much you have posted recently but you have done so in a moderate and fair way.  And what I do know is that genuine knowledge and understanding nearly always comes from discussion fuelled by disagreement.  If we, here, can't disagree with each other in a moderate, polite and respectful way, then what chance does society have?


And yes, water policy and climate change must both be more relevant to GCA than a very substantial proportion of threads that find their way here.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

Re: The Riv
« Reply #60 on: January 14, 2025, 04:51:28 AM »
So how is Riv?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Wentworth Edinburgh, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty, Dumbarnie, Gleneagles Queens and Carradale

Chris Hughes

Re: The Riv
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2025, 12:00:56 PM »
So how is Riv?

Ciao


Napoli Drive runs parallel to the 4th, 5th and 18th fairways on the west side of the club.  Subsequent parallel blocks to the west in order are Corsica Dr., West Sunset Blvd. and Amalfi Drive.


A map on the CBS website shows the fire moved toward Riviera from the west having crossed Amalfi and reached West Sunset, but only crossing West Sunset in one spot about midway down the 18th hole -- that would be about 2.5 to 3 blocks from the course (5 rows of houses).


Rivera remains in the mandatory evacuation zone, as well as the defined fire zone...but the detail in the area of the map it resides in hasn't really changed in a couple of days. 


Simplified, most everything immediately west of the course/club is burned/gone, nothing adjacent on the east side has been affected yet.






https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-fire-maps-palisades-eaton-hurst-2025/





"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

V. Kmetz

Re: The Riv
« Reply #62 on: January 14, 2025, 05:52:41 PM »
No matter what the angel intentions--and the next days may scrub any conversation--imo there is no way they should be playing there in a month. This is going to be dump trucks, bulldozers, Moffet trucks and all manner of heavy equipment and utility service and yellow light vehicles and police lines and big rigs going to and fro those windy roads and up and across these hills... You can't understand what the main roads (Sunset primarily on one side, San Vicente Blvd, the other) and their arteries are like, even with the vast majority off parking well off site.  It would be like imposing a fair on a Dresden, at least in anything north of the course


In 2022, I used my cousin's house (1000 block of El Oro, PPalisades - now gone last Wed night/Thur morning) as a base for my tournament visit and it was frankly easier to drive myself down to Santa Monica and catch the voluminous shuttles, rather than having my cousin drop me off...and his property is less than 3 miles from the course.


LA denizens will know better than I, but I've visited LA 15 times in the last 25 years and traffic down there can be wicked at any time, no less with these buses, Uber drops, cabs, mini vans, support vehicles, and police barricades and signal men. 


While the neighborhood itself will be largely barren of its burned out residents, it seems to me the last thing it needs is a PGA Tour event; if its too hard to move the basic infrastructure nearby out of harms way at a course wiling to host, then it wouldn't be so awful to cancel it.


As for economy and charity, I sure hope its recognized that the people least indemnified against this disaster are the local business owners and theirs/other daily service workers who man the shops, restaurants, landscape, contract work, etc.  A big multi multi million dollar gift might give some relief there, but the entire purse of the PGA calendar this year might not balm the homeowners disaster of a 1/4th of what's been lost. 
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Kalen Braley

Re: The Riv
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2025, 06:40:50 PM »
It seems like if they can move the venue for a NFL Playoff game, out of state to boot, with just a few days notice...

Seems like they could move a golf tournament with several weeks notice.

P.S.  I'm with Michael on the fact-checking issue, that its become political is the real tragedy.  Heaven forbid you-know-who weighs in on the "Who built Merion" debate, then you'd have to delete that entire 100+ page thread::)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2025, 06:42:43 PM by Kalen Braley »

Chris Hughes

Re: The Riv
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2025, 07:04:18 PM »


P.S.  I'm with Michael on the fact-checking issue, that its become political is the real tragedy.  Heaven forbid you-know-who weighs in on the "Who built Merion" debate, then you'd have to delete that entire 100+ page thread::)


The tournament won't be held at Riviera CC the week Feb. 13-16 so don't worry about that.


As for the "fact checking", stop kidding yourself. 


What happened there was Michael couldn't resist the urge to publicly stir the boiling cauldron of hatred he has bubbling in his stomach on a daily basis -- a palpable hatred he has for President Donald J. Trump.  Gonna be a loooong 12 years carrying around a burden like that.


Hey, anyone out there fact checking Maria Shriver's comments?  Do tell...  ;D




« Last Edit: January 14, 2025, 07:07:28 PM by Chris Hughes »
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

MCirba

Re: The Riv
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2025, 08:11:58 PM »
Their lord and savior won.


Why the hell are they still so angry, provocative, and unhappy?


Cognitive dissonance must be tough.


Done with this thread and blocking the provocateur.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Steve Lapper

Re: The Riv
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2025, 11:00:00 PM »
Mike,

And they think intellectuals and liberals are easily triggered? :o
« Last Edit: January 15, 2025, 07:22:33 AM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Rob Marshall

Re: The Riv
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2025, 10:55:01 AM »
While playing horrible golf yesterday one of my playing partners said something interesting when politics came up. "No one person is bigger than the country".


Hopefully the winds calm down and the horrific fires can finally be put out. Finger pointing is the least of California's worries.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Joel_Stewart

Re: The Riv
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2025, 07:01:03 PM »
So how is Riv?

Ciao


Its fine, still in the evacuation zone so there's no play.  I'm not sure if they had some smoke damage but the furniture is easily replaceable.  They lost power for quite a while so I'm unsure if they were able to run the irrigation system.


I'm sure they would like to get the hotel open to accommodate members who may have lost their homes. Bel Airs new clubhouse is open and they have 6 rooms for overnight stay and those are booked.

Matt_Cohn

Re: The Riv
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2025, 08:04:21 PM »
If they wanted to host it somewhere else (let’s say Valencia or Sherwood), is that even possible with ~4 weeks notice? Or maybe possible without galleries? Although if there weren’t galleries perhaps they could just stick to Riviera. Does anyone have insight into the logistics of this?

Sean_A

Re: The Riv
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2025, 12:18:52 PM »
So how is Riv?

Ciao


Its fine, still in the evacuation zone so there's no play.  I'm not sure if they had some smoke damage but the furniture is easily replaceable.  They lost power for quite a while so I'm unsure if they were able to run the irrigation system.


I'm sure they would like to get the hotel open to accommodate members who may have lost their homes. Bel Airs new clubhouse is open and they have 6 rooms for overnight stay and those are booked.

Cheers.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Wentworth Edinburgh, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty, Dumbarnie, Gleneagles Queens and Carradale

Matt_Cohn

Re: The Riv
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2025, 04:21:56 PM »
It’s been announced that the Genesis will be played at an alternate site this year, but they didn’t say where yet.

Kalen Braley

Re: The Riv
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2025, 05:47:03 PM »
It’s been announced that the Genesis will be played at an alternate site this year, but they didn’t say where yet.

Among the potential locations under consideration, according to sources, are La Quinta Country Club in La Quinta, California, the site of this week's American Express, and Torrey Pines in La Jolla, California, which will host next week's Farmers Insurance Open.

The PGA Tour could also do back-to-back weeks at TPC Scottsdale in Arizona, the site of the WM Phoenix Open on Feb. 6-9. Another possibility is Shadow Creek Golf Course in Las Vegas, which was the site of the CJ Cup in the past and an LPGA match-play event the past four years.


https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/43442772/pga-moving-genesis-invitational-la-due-wildfires[/size]

Matt_Cohn

Re: The Riv
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2025, 06:22:30 PM »
I wouldn't mind seeing more Shadow Creek. Tiger seems to have a relationship with it, too. I know there's precedent for back-to-back weeks at the same venue (Muirfield Village during Covid), but it doesn't seem ideal for sustaining interest.

Chris Hughes

Re: The Riv
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2025, 10:46:57 PM »
The situation appears to be stable around Riviera CC.


Link here actually shows specific structures lost down to the individual house level:  https://www.nbcnews.com/data-graphics/california-fire-map-track-wildfires-size-rcna187291



The nearest homes lost were 3 on Amalfi, and 3 on Ravoli...the 8th row from Riviera in each instance.


Shadow Creek sounds like a great idea!!

"Is it the Chicken Salad or the Golf Course that attracts and retains members?"

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