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Jeff_Brauer

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"Shot Values"
« on: January 04, 2025, 05:09:43 PM »
Please define "Shot Values."  This one has been on my mind lately, since I reread the Graves and Cornish book "Golf Course Design" from 1996.  They say the definition is vague, and I think I agree.


They quoted my mentors, Tom Doak, and Mike Hurdzan about their views (and maybe others, that weren't included in the book) 


Mike Hurdzan said, "the value of a required golf shot as related to its difficulty or margin of error.


Tom Doak said, "The architect should seek to get the most out of the ground and let play take care of itself.  Each hole must be designed to balance risk and reward."


My mentors said, "The reflection of what a hole demands of the golfer and the relative reward or punishment it metes out for good and bad shots."


I remember hearing Dick Nugent spout that from perhaps my first in the office.  I was like a little kid, asking for a deeper explanation.  As he tried to refine his thoughts (that I still thought were too vague) I would ask "how?" or "why?" until he told me to stop, lol.


TD's sounds 1) Like him, and 2) somewhat contradictory.  Do you design for the ground? Or use it to best design for golfers?  If you let play take care of itself,  do you really attempt to balance "risk and reward?"  Seems like he cannot do both, at least to me.


Dr. Hurdzan hints at a mathematical type of answer, which he later expounded on his book, sizing greens to at least the USGA Slope guidelines so they can accept a decent shot, keeping cross slopes gentle enough to not kick balls of the fairway, etc.


The authors go on after their quotes to opine as follows:


1. Distance from where the ball lies to its intended stopping point.  Shot Length
2. The lie of the ball  Ball lie and stance
3. The golfer's stance (i.e., sidehill vs. level, etc.)
4.  Wind direction and speed  Probably the number one thing, not 3rd.
5. The desired stopping point (flat, sloped, hard/soft, turf type) Is the fw or green receptive to a well played shot?
6. Hazards or other problems either in the desired line of play or near enough to be a concern.  Do hazards punish Proportionally?
7. Shot requirements of the following shot, if the present shot is successful or missed.  Is there a basic strategy that may yield a  difference in your score on that hole.
8. "The value of hitting it long and particularly to place your shot is obvious."


They try for more detail, but are well short of any definition, i.e., IMHO, what it takes to successfully find the balance of risk/reward.


Is it really that vague, or does anyone have a more comprehensive definition to share?


If it were me, I would probably further define a "shot with good values" similarly to my Greens Committee Guide book as such:


A good hole fits the land well, (Doak) plays well, has reasonable challenge, is fun, looks great, is memorable, and is also distinct from others on the course. Some of the world’s great holes violate some of the good practices listed below.  Most holes (with exceptions…there are always exceptions) follow at least most, if not all, of the following generally accepted golf course design principles:


•   Aesthetics – Most of us play golf in large part to be out in nature.  When natural site qualities are short on natural beauty, the architect needs to supply it with hazards, contouring, landscaping, etc.
•   Visible targets and hazards – First, they are artistic (see above).  Second, this fosters strategy and even safety.  They are even more important at resort and public courses for safety than at private clubs.
•   Length – From each tee, golfers should be able to play holes of all types from a reasonable length for them.
•   Width – With some variety, wide turf corridors (fairways and roughs) facilitate strategic route options and allow “hit it, find it, hit it again” golf.  Sub-200 foot turf corridors are narrow, while 225-250 foot corridors are comfortable.  Any wider is just plain embarrassing to miss, but it does happen.
•   Challenge – The Robert Trent Jones mantra of “Hard Par, Easy Bogey” still applies.  We add “possible birdie,” because who doesn’t like those?
•   Strategy and Options – One way to play the hole is penal, two or more ways to play is strategic.  Parents know that giving kids one choice (which is really no choice) makes them defiant but offering them their choice usually makes them compliant.  Golfers aren’t very different. 
•   Risk and Reward – Temptation has been around since Adam and Eve.  Choosing between safe and risky shots is always fun. It’s even more enticing when it saves a shot or two.  Otherwise, why bother? Differing choices elevates the game from a rote, physical one to a physical and mental one.
·     Encourage Good Shots – by letting golfers succeed, i.e., hold the green, stay in the fairway, etc., with all but very bad luck.  And, by keeping most hazards moderately difficult, because overly punitive hazards make golfers less likely to take risks and succumb to temptation. 
·     Punish Bad Shots Proportionally – There are many variations in philosophy, applied by different designers with different goals to unique topography for each hole.  In most cases, a half or full shot penalty is enough to change the outcome of a match.  Losing 2 or more shots because of a bad shot seems like overkill.


    As someone opined long ago, “The right of eternal punishment should be left to a higher power than the golf course architect.” 
·     Fair – While architects usually strive for “fair,” life’s not fair and neither is golf.  “Perfectly fair” is unattainable.  We can’t, and shouldn’t, totally eliminate “rub of the green.”
·     Playable by All – For “D” players a “good shot” is airborne, generally flying towards the hole, and most of the way there.  Even by that relaxed standard, most hit about 10 good shots per round and their best shots should get positive results!  Those who hit less than 10 successful shots per round are called “E” (as in “ex”) golfers.  When considering challenge and difficulty, architects generally err on the side of caution to accommodate all potential players.  Key playability tenants include minimizing forced carries from the forward-most tees, which was easier to do before the environmental movement put birds ahead of birdies.  Another is to minimize placing hazards that only punish poor shots. 
·     Agronomically Sound – While unseen by golfers, architects must make sure the soils, sun and breeze, together with proper drainage and irrigation support fine turf expected by golfers.


Thoughts on any of it?  Or is it either too vague or broad to fit into a shorter explanation?


Apologies for the formatting where I pasted parts of my old articles.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2025, 05:55:27 PM »
Jeff,

Well thought out post. Agree with most everything except about “fair”. Never really tried to design things to be fair because every golfer will find something “unfair”about it anyway!  It’s all relative, but there is stupid and I try to avoid designing stupid :)

When it comes to shot values, an architect needs to take into consideration who is going to play there.  We also have to remember why golf courses are built in the first place. It’s for a game to be played and contested on them. Sometimes it’s just for fun for most average players and sometimes it’s to test the best players in the world and sometimes it’s for both.  I think all architects are trying to get the most out of the land, but as was said a few weeks ago on another thread, sometimes there’s conflicting goals between what the architect wants, what the client wants, and what the golfers who will play there want and also what the budget allows!  All these things need to be considered in the design. If an architect is lucky to be able to do what they want where they want, God bless them, but few will get that opportunity. As such, shot values, which has to do with how the playing field tests, challenges, intrigues, confuses, inspires a golfer to play different shots will always vary from course to course and from player to player. And again, depending on what the goals are for the project, sometimes like Tillinghast once said, some of the holes might need to be knocked into shape to hold their head politely in society. 

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2025, 06:11:29 PM »
The problem with "shot values" is precisely that's it's an undefined, gobbledygook term that means different things to different people.


So, naturally, it has always been the centerpiece of GOLF DIGEST's course ranking system!  :D

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2025, 09:37:48 PM »
Imagine a dead flat hole 400 yards long that is all putting green infinitely in all directions that runs 10’ on the Stimpmeter.


You play it 100 times.


What’s your average score?


Shot values are what the design/layout/terrain does to alter that average. The language is the shots you play.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2025, 09:47:21 PM »
The problem with "shot values" is precisely that's it's an undefined, gobbledygook term that means different things to different people.


So, naturally, it has always been the centerpiece of GOLF DIGEST's course ranking system!  :D


Tom GD changed shot values to shot options. It is defined as; "How well does the course present a variety of options involving risks and rewards and require a wide range of shots?" I like this better.

It is coupled with Shot Variety. "How varied is the physical layout of the course in terms of differing lengths (long, medium and short par 3s, 4s and 5s), configurations (straight holes, doglegs left and right); how varied are the hazard placements, green shapes and green contours; and how connected are the holes to both the ground and to each other? How distinctive is each hole compared to others on the course?"

They both count double when the scores are added up.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2025, 09:50:31 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2025, 05:39:24 AM »
No disrespect or offence intended but this seems to suggests an element of paralysis of analysis?
As such the 80-20 rule and the 18-sticks in an afternoon approach come to mind.
Atb

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2025, 06:52:24 AM »
I think shot values is a meaningless term  either invented or at least popularised by Golf Digest to try to make it appear as if there is some objective quality to its rankings.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2025, 09:14:46 AM »
Adam and others,
All the “catagories” etc that GD analyzes are not really any different than anyone with a keen eye would study when looking critically at a golf course.  Each person might have their own way of weighting or valuing the different aspects of the design but they would all be studied in some way in their evaluation.  Part of the reasoning to try to separate certain attributes out might be to make sure nothing in particular is missed or over valued.  Any of us would look at things like the routing and the flow of the holes, the challenges and temptations they present, how similar or varied they are in both visual appearance and how they play and the types of shots required, how the course is maintained, and on and on.  At the end of the day whether you have eight boxes that add up to a certain total or just one number or one letter or …, you better be and are very likely looking at all these different things to make your final assessment.  And hopefully you haven’t let the water pressure of the shower heads, the burger at the half way house, or the red carpet treatment from the staff,… influence what you think of the golf architecture!!


If you don’t like the term shot values or shot options, call it something else or call it nothing at all but as Tommy pointed out in GD’s definition, you likely are looking at that kind of thing in your study of the course and placing some kind of weight on it. 

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2025, 10:34:13 AM »
I’m too simple to understand all the garbledygook, so I just use the term “variety”. It works surprisingly well.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2025, 03:42:36 PM »
No disrespect or offence intended but this seems to suggests an element of paralysis of analysis?
As such the 80-20 rule and the 18-sticks in an afternoon approach come to mind.
Atb

Thomas, no offense taken and.....I may have had the same thoughts, lol.  The fact that this topic enters my mind some 48 years after I first quizzed my boss also suggests it.  His (and other architects I have queried) non-answer made me wonder just how deep gca's thought things out, or did they just do what THEIR mentors did.

Also, I am always mindful of my father's advice (paraphrased from many others) that a good idea (or the truth) should be described in 3 sentences or less.  And, most good players I have known can usually tell you when a hole doesn't play like it should."  They are pretty consistent.  So, I'm thinking that shot values could be determined for any individual with a series of one point questions.  With strategy moving towards a more statistical analysis, it makes sense to me that architects should think more carefully about how a hole can or should be played.

From my list above, take visibility. Which bullet point best describes your philosophy on golf holes (we know there are always exceptions.......:

Every target is to be totally visible, including seeing the ball land and roll out. (i.e., see the bottom of the pin, something better players usually argue for, even with all the yardage book and GPS data)

Targets should ALWAYS be visible to the degree you know where to aim.

Greens should ALWAYS, but FW may not need to.

I like every target to be visible, but understand that occasionally, uphill holes require that kind of shot.

As a player and an architect, I strive to include a few blind approach shots (e.g. Dell Hole?) on every course.

Maybe those get ranked 1-5, and we could reach a consensus of sorts.


Just sort of noodling on it after reading that Graves-Cornish book again.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2025, 03:46:11 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2025, 07:06:13 PM »

Tom GD changed shot values to shot options. It is defined as; "How well does the course present a variety of options involving risks and rewards and require a wide range of shots?" I like this better.

It is coupled with Shot Variety. "How varied is the physical layout of the course in terms of differing lengths (long, medium and short par 3s, 4s and 5s), configurations (straight holes, doglegs left and right); how varied are the hazard placements, green shapes and green contours; and how connected are the holes to both the ground and to each other? How distinctive is each hole compared to others on the course?"

They both count double when the scores are added up.


Hi Tommy:


Thanks for the note.  When did they change it?


The latter definition is somewhat odd, as it includes some things that I would consider part of routing, and other things that are more about a variety of holes than about a variety of shots.  But, it's better than it was!

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2025, 09:29:10 PM »
I have a canned response for this subject.  For me, "shot values" is an important part of evaluation, but as Tom D. suggests, it's a personal definition.

Shot values is concerned with all of the thoughts and observations when playing shots.  This includes assessing the shot to be played, executing the stroke and observing the results.  Repeated over the course of a full round, a player can gauge the variety and general enjoyment of the shots.

It's fair to suggest that shot values are independent of the course's appearance.  Although these two aspects of a course are related, it's conceivable that there are courses that look really cool but yield too many mundane shots, just as there are plain looking courses that are consistently fun and exciting to play.




Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2025, 10:30:51 PM »

Tom GD changed shot values to shot options. It is defined as; "How well does the course present a variety of options involving risks and rewards and require a wide range of shots?" I like this better.

It is coupled with Shot Variety. "How varied is the physical layout of the course in terms of differing lengths (long, medium and short par 3s, 4s and 5s), configurations (straight holes, doglegs left and right); how varied are the hazard placements, green shapes and green contours; and how connected are the holes to both the ground and to each other? How distinctive is each hole compared to others on the course?"

They both count double when the scores are added up.


Hi Tommy:


Thanks for the note.  When did they change it?


The latter definition is somewhat odd, as it includes some things that I would consider part of routing, and other things that are more about a variety of holes than about a variety of shots.  But, it's better than it was!


It seems to me it was changed three years ago.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2025, 11:05:27 PM »
I’m too simple to understand all the garbledygook, so I just use the term “variety”. It works surprisingly well.

Yep.

I feel the same about “using every club in the bag”. I never once thought of shot values or UECitB when evaluating a course.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2025, 08:38:19 AM »
I recall about a million years ago when I did the Golf Architecture Course at Heriot Watt/Edinburgh College of Art that I struggled to understand what was meant by shot values. I can't recall Mike Wood's definition but I do remember I was none the wiser after hearing it, and that's not a dig at Mike. I eventually came to the conclusion that it was simply a reference to different types of shots eg. low, high, fade, slice, punch etc without any numeric value intended. The basic idea was to provide a variety of challenges to test the skillset of the player.


Whatever the truth of that, like Sean, its not something I think about when playing or evaluating a course. For one thing I have a fairly limited repertoire of shots and therefore more likely to try and adapt what I have to the course, and for another, the intended "shot value" for the approach shot likely wouldn't apply after one of my drives  ;)


Niall

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2025, 08:51:47 AM »

Jeff,

To prevent my brain from breaking with concepts such as "Shot Values", I prefer to use the subjective definition (describing "pornography") by Justice Potter Stewart, who famously said, "I know it when I see it".    ;)
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2025, 08:56:32 AM »
I feel the same about “using every club in the bag”. I never once thought of shot values or UECitB when evaluating a course.
The use of UECitB to evaluate a course is also a somewhat odd idea, ludicrous perhaps(?), given that some players don’t even carry 14 clubs! :)
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2025, 05:59:09 PM »
I feel the same about “using every club in the bag”. I never once thought of shot values or UECitB when evaluating a course.
The use of UECitB to evaluate a course is also a somewhat odd idea, ludicrous perhaps(?), given that some players don’t even carry 14 clubs! :)


And when four of the fourteen clubs are wedges!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2025, 06:56:54 PM »
We always seem to think these different terms are rocket science. Please definitively define the term “best” or what is “great” or what is “unique” or what is “quirky” or god forbid what is “restoration”?  If someone asked a group of ten car enthusiasts to name the “best” sports car do you think there is any chance in the world there would be any agreement?  Not likely unless there was some kind of definition or criteria given to help make their decision.  It could criteria as simple as saying “which one is the fastest in the 1/4 mile” to “you will know it when you drive it”! Which one would yield more agreement?

GD is just trying to give some guidance to different attributes of golf courses.  We might all call those attributes something different but we likely all would be looking for these kind of things in an analysis.  Again, this is not rocket science! 
« Last Edit: January 07, 2025, 06:54:00 AM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #19 on: January 06, 2025, 11:14:03 PM »

Jeff,

To prevent my brain from breaking with concepts such as "Shot Values", I prefer to use the subjective definition (describing "pornography") by Justice Potter Stewart, who famously said, "I know it when I see it".    ;)

Fair enough, Mike.  But I think gca's need to know it before they build it, no?  It may be gut feel to some, but more scientific to others.  I'm thinking JN probably thinks somehow in that manner, creating or envisioning shots (which golfers tend to do at high levels.)  Even those of us who probably lean to the landscape design side, i.e., aesthetics need to know something about how the best play the game.

As Niall said, once you top your tee shot......there really is not much definition of shot values.  I have had discussions on public course design, whether greens should be sized for expected approach shots or knowing that a chunk of players will be trying to hit the green from their max distance of 180-200 yards after some kind of muffed tee shot, should public course greens all be sized to let that player have a chance for a spectacular recovery?

Which brings us back to the question of shot values for who, and I think it has been mentioned that the role of the course will play a role in how the design is crafted.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2025, 01:33:31 AM »
Jeff,


I appreciate you wanting to listen to the "customer", but any architect worth his or her salt should have enough of a perspective on what makes a quality course given site, budget, and other variables that our definition of an ambiguous term that no one I know uses should not be needed to guide their design choices.


To be complete, I look to the course to educate me rather than the other way around.


Ira
« Last Edit: January 07, 2025, 01:59:51 AM by Ira Fishman »

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2025, 06:17:40 AM »
I’m too simple to understand all the garbledygook, so I just use the term “variety”. It works surprisingly well.

Yep.

I feel the same about “using every club in the bag”. I never once thought of shot values or UECitB when evaluating a course.

Ciao
Very true Sean. Moreso for the aging or female golfer who can't carry the ball as far is required on numerous occasions. That is when golfers start getting depressed. Avoid such courses.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2025, 07:58:44 AM »

As Niall said, once you top your tee shot.....


Just for absolute clarity, I don't top all my tee shots. Some are hooked and others are sliced.


Niall

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2025, 09:47:48 AM »

If someone asked a group of ten car enthusiasts to name the “best” sports car do you think there is any chance in the world there would be any agreement?

This illustrates where we, in golf architecture, tend to be way more universal (and our playing fields need to be way more universal) than pretty much any other hobby/interest/game/sport. Interests are way more narrow in most other areas like this, and sometimes I wonder whether we should be way more narrow too. I think you'd rarely hear the nutjob car enthusiasts arguing about anything as general as the best sports car. Maybe we should take a page from that book.

Instead of trying to determine the best course or top 100 or whatever, make our categories much more specific: Best courses where a multi-generational family can play a round and all have fun. Best courses for four single-digit GCA nerds to play. Best courses for four single-digit GCA ignoramuses to play. And so on. Nearly infinite categories. That's how a lot of car nuts do it. My dad's one and his interest is so narrow as to be almost absurd (Dodge pickup trucks between the years of 1939 and 1947 - he has two of them).

I keep flip-flopping on whether courses should be designed in this way or whether most courses should be for everyone. I can't seem to make up my mind.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: "Shot Values"
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2025, 10:20:23 AM »

I keep flip-flopping on whether courses should be designed in this way or whether most courses should be for everyone. I can't seem to make up my mind.


Finding my niche was key to the success of my career.


You could say the same thing for Mike Keiser's success.  His "retail golfer" was not "everyone," he had a pretty specific demographic in mind [which just happened to be, guys like him  ;) ].


The problem with most modern courses is that they don't have a good enough idea of their target audience.  Just for starters, they keep putting in back tees that almost nobody is going to play, which throw off the balance and the walkability for the other 95% of customers, just because they think the other 5% are going to make or break their reputation.