Amateur Architects - What would be your most iconic template?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Amateur Architects - What would be your most iconic template? If any?

I am combining ideas in two different threads here - templates and iconic holes.  I know anyone can design (and design, and design) a template of sorts.  What would be yours?  As mentioned, iconic probably depends on scenery and time to garner that label, but is there a design idea you think is strong enough to use over and over as a template, and possibly, one you think would be iconic in time, based on design only, i.e., a relatively ordinary site? 

The first one, albeit an old hole, would be the par 3 at Garden City, with two large ridges on the sides of the green.  I have seen Colton Craig attempt it here in TX, but he went out of way to make it softer and thus, practical.  I have tried those 1-2 foot ridges on one side of a green, but never had a chance to do both.

Any professional architect who has an idea that they haven't found the perfect spot to implement might chime in, too.

[Ronald Montesano]

The 3rd at Coudersport (PA) is as close to an iconic template that no one knows about, as I know. I'm not a fan of the narrow fairway drive zone and landing area, but I am a fan of the biarritz green with a front-right kick plate. I played it once, with Kevin Lynch, and all that I wanted to do was play it over and over. It's 135 minutes drive from Buffalo, so I guess that if I went back, I'd get there early, play 36, get up early and play 36 more, then head home. That should sate me for a lifetime.

I'd love to see them clear out the trees on the left, to make it more of a cape, and flatten part of the hill right, to widen the landing area.


https://www.coudersportgolfclub.com/front-nine

[Phil Young]

The long par-3 Tillinghast REEF hole, the most iconic being the 17th hole at Indian Hills CC in Kansas City. Although Jeff mentions that "iconic probably depends on scenery," the scenery on this is the entirety of the hole itself. An article in the February 14th, 1926 issue of the Kansas City Star described it this way:
      "The tee rests on the north edge of Observatory Knoll and is seventy-five feet higher than the green 240 yards away. This is a spoon shot, the player can then carry 180 yards and on a line can find the green, but for the player who is off-line there is no chance as there are ytraps in front and both sides of the green and its approaches. This is one of the outstanding holes on the courses."
      Unfortunately, the fairway bunkering and mounding that created the REEF feature, was done away with by the club...The severe downhill shot to the green was singular among the REEF holes that till designed and built.

[Mike Bodo]

Ross volcano holes. Love 'em! Even partial volacano greens where there are steep drop-off's on two or three sides, making it next to impossible to bail out.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Ross volcano holes. Love 'em! Even partial volacano greens where there are steep drop-off's on two or three sides, making it next to impossible to bail out.

Eleven at Musgrove has a terrific volcano green. It falls off on four sides and is split into two parts, left and right. The left side slopes right to left, while the right side of the green is relatively flat. You are hitting a wedge or nine iron in.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Before I played Lido, I would have answered differently. Now I choose the Channel Hole. It is ingenious, fun, and challenging, offering multiple ways of playing the hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Before I played Lido, I would have answered differently. Now I choose the Channel Hole. It is ingenious, fun, and challenging, offering multiple ways of playing the hole.

It's funny, both the Channel hole and MacKenzie's finishing hole just kill me.  But Tom Simpson's contribution to the course, the 15th, is one of my favorite holes we've built.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Before I played Lido, I would have answered differently. Now I choose the Channel Hole. It is ingenious, fun, and challenging, offering multiple ways of playing the hole.

It's funny, both the Channel hole and MacKenzie's finishing hole just kill me.  But Tom Simpson's contribution to the course, the 15th, is one of my favorite holes we've built.

Fascinating. Fifteen took me to the woodshed. I hit my tee ball too far to the right and had trouble hitting the green. It is a terrific hole, though. The bunkering makes you think on every shot.

[Ira Fishman]

I have wondered why more architects did not adopt PH11 as a template. It certainly does not rely on dramatic ground, but is befuddingly strategic.

[Thomas Dai]

Is there a full-size course where one of the short holes is purely putting surface?
Not a hole that’s playable with a putter.
All putting surface?
Atb


PS - if so would it be a par-2?

[archie_struthers]

 


Think I'd prefer a " punch bowl " .  t eight  Trying to build one that would have the right amount of cant on the slopes to make it a test would be uber fun for me !

[Mike Bodo]

Ross volcano holes. Love 'em! Even partial volacano greens where there are steep drop-off's on two or three sides, making it next to impossible to bail out.

Eleven at Musgrove has a terrific volcano green. It falls off on four sides and is split into two parts, left and right. The left side slopes right to left, while the right side of the green is relatively flat. You are hitting a wedge or nine iron in.

That is a great looking hole. Would hate to have to chip up to that green from below. If the surrounds are cut as low as they appear I'd probably putt it. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Is there a full-size course where one of the short holes is purely putting surface?
Not a hole that’s playable with a putter.
All putting surface?
Atb


PS - if so would it be a par-2?

Thomas,

Todd Quitno did one of 72 yards near Chicago a few years ago and presented that as a case study with the same question - Is it a par 2 or 3?  I think it would be a par 3, as there is no rule that you cannot hit a putter off the tee.

[MKrohn]

Ross volcano holes. Love 'em! Even partial volacano greens where there are steep drop-off's on two or three sides, making it next to impossible to bail out.

Eleven at Musgrove has a terrific volcano green. It falls off on four sides and is split into two parts, left and right. The left side slopes right to left, while the right side of the green is relatively flat. You are hitting a wedge or nine iron in.

That is a great looking hole. Would hate to have to chip up to that green from below. If the surrounds are cut as low as they appear I'd probably putt it. 

I've never played the hole however it looks like all the balls that miss the green end up rolling to the same spot. The roll point ends up covered in divots or having GUR markings.

[Mike Hendren]

I’m sticking with the reverse Treedan.  Par 3 ideally slightly downhill playing 200 to 250 with fairway and green sloping downhill from the left, with left side kick plate.  Right 2/3 of the green fronted by a massive oak tree 150 to 200 from the tee.  Bunkerless.

[Matthew Rose]

I like Biarritzes. I haven't played them very often or even seen many of them, but I'm kind of obsessed with them. I think if I was designing them I would probably make them a little more subtle and with softer edges than some of Raynor's.

I've put them in some of the computer golf courses I've made. 

[Jason Topp]

The standard Pete Dye par four - tee shot favors one ball flight, approach favors another.  Very simple concept that makes for interesting play. 


TPC Sawgrass has many 1, 4, 5, 7, 10, 15 judging by aerial pictures and faint memory.  Every course of his I have played has examples. 

[Matt Schoolfield]

I've thought long and hard about this one and none of the templates I care about passionately are famous ones. Instinctually, I would say Hogan's Hole at Lions Muny, but the template I keep coming back to is one that I would call "Serpentine." It's a par five in a reversed "S" shape, where you can reach the green in two if you cut both corners, but both shots require a dangerous carry. The two examples I can point to are:

#10 at Metropolitan GL

#5 at Bodega Harbor GL

The holes are not identical, but they both carry the same main theme: if you've got the wind at your back, go for it. If you don't, there is still a lot of options in the lay up and approach. I think it is also an interesting template for higher handicappers because there's a build in second chance if players are willing to take on more risk after a poor drive or lay up.

[Michael Morandi]

I like the risk/reward of Cape holes

[Kyle Harris]

I've thought long and hard about this one and none of the templates I care about passionately are famous ones. Instinctually, I would say Hogan's Hole at Lions Muny, but the template I keep coming back to is one that I would call "Serpentine." It's a par five in a reversed "S" shape, where you can reach the green in two if you cut both corners, but both shots require a dangerous carry. The two examples I can point to are:

#10 at Metropolitan GL

#5 at Bodega Harbor GL

The holes are not identical, but they both carry the same main theme: if you've got the wind at your back, go for it. If you don't, there is still a lot of options in the lay up and approach. I think it is also an interesting template for higher handicappers because there's a build in second chance if players are willing to take on more risk after a poor drive or lay up.

Having plays Lions Muni three times now in the past month or so, I'd vote for #12 over #16.

I'm a sucker for long, uphill Par 3s so a hole like Streamsong Blue #16.

What are the bunkerless templates? I have a few in mind.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Having plays Lions Muni three times now in the past month or so, I'd vote for #12 over #16.

I'm a sucker for long, uphill Par 3s so a hole like Streamsong Blue #16.

What are the bunkerless templates? I have a few in mind.

I mean, I think #1 at Lions is one of the best opening holes I've ever played, and would say it's probably the best hole on the course. I just don't think it's a good template hole, because I think it's entirely dependent on the slope of the land. That opener is super interesting to me where you're hitting some kind of long iron or hybrid off the tee, but you can't cut the corner because the slope of the fairway will throw you into the trees if you try to. I don't know why I really like a finesse shot off the first tee, but I do.

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I like #12, but I would would push back a bit. It's a fine hole, and it's super fun, but it's broken as a template for me simply by being all about length off the tee. Maybe it's just me, but I don't care for templates where the opening shot is just "hit it as hard as you can."

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I think #16 makes such an impact (and was kind of the signature hole of the course when I was learning there), because it's kind of a game of Press Your Luck... You really, really want to get as close as possible to that water hazard, without going in. No driver necessary, as most can splash it in the hazard pretty easily with a well struck 3 or 5 wood.

This pairs well with the approach to the elevated green because, well, you really want a mid-iron to the green, because an over-swing getting away from you is a complete disaster. It's better to lay up from distance, but you won't want to because it's not that hard of a shot. The slight downslope lie after any drive short enough to be safe from the water is the masterstroke of design here, as that should tend to nudge approach shots toward the disaster right of the green, unless the player thinks to adjust for it.

I do think it could use a more interesting green, but not all templates are about the green contours.

[Kyle Harris]

Having plays Lions Muni three times now in the past month or so, I'd vote for #12 over #16.

I'm a sucker for long, uphill Par 3s so a hole like Streamsong Blue #16.

What are the bunkerless templates? I have a few in mind.

I mean, I think #1 at Lions is one of the best opening holes I've ever played, and would say it's probably the best hole on the course. I just don't think it's a good template hole, because I think it's entirely dependent on the slope of the land. That opener is super interesting to me where you're hitting some kind of long iron or hybrid off the tee, but you can't cut the corner because the slope of the fairway will throw you into the trees if you try to. I don't know why I really like a finesse shot off the first tee, but I do.

---

I like #12, but I would would push back a bit. It's a fine hole, and it's super fun, but it's broken as a template for me simply by being all about length off the tee. Maybe it's just me, but I don't care for templates where the opening shot is just "hit it as hard as you can."

---

I think #16 makes such an impact (and was kind of the signature hole of the course when I was learning there), because it's kind of a game of Press Your Luck... You really, really want to get as close as possible to that water hazard, without going in. No driver necessary, as most can splash it in the hazard pretty easily with a well struck 3 or 5 wood.

This pairs well with the approach to the elevated green because, well, you really want a mid-iron to the green, because an over-swing getting away from you is a complete disaster. It's better to lay up from distance, but you won't want to because it's not that hard of a shot. The slight downslope lie after any drive short enough to be safe from the water is the masterstroke of design here, as that should tend to nudge approach shots toward the disaster right of the green, unless the player thinks to adjust for it.

I do think it could use a more interesting green, but not all templates are about the green contours.

As a template, Lions #16 exists at every golf course built in Florida between 1970 and 2011. I think it was a law or something. I think you're on to something if the water were narrower and angled, but then you'd have the 12th at Huntingdon Valley.


All the people I've played with at Lions weren't long enough to hit anything except Driver from the tee and then they were attempting to carve their hybrids from the downhill lie. I'm not entirely sure how my grandmother would play the hole if she were alive and played golf, but you take my point I suppose.

[Jim Hoak]

Tommy and Mike--With regard to volcano greens--While I love the ideas from both of you regularly, greens of that sort--I call them "table-top greens"--are my absolute least favorite design feature in all of golf!  Takes away the bump and run, is generally unappealing to my sense of fair play, often penalizes a near-perfectly hit iron shot with a lengthy run-off, often results in most all balls collecting in one area with divots, and is generally offensive to my idea of good golf course design.
It just goes to show that golf course design--like any other art form--is personal to the eye of the viewer.  What you love, I happen to hate.  But neither of us are right or wrong--we just have different tastes.  Maybe that is what I love about golf course design and this opinion site!  Let's all keep it up, while always being considerate and understanding of the views of others.

[Michael Dugger]

Jeff - Put me down for the Road Hole. For one, it can be built on any flat ground. For two, is there a more iconic golf setting than the old town of St. Andrews? The name of the hole is by virtue of the feature itself, the road.


Both the road, and the bunker, are iconic, so it's has two important calling cards, so to speak.


And the strategy is sound. Drive as far right as possible at all costs to avoid taking on the bunker.   

[Chris Hughes]

The long par-3 Tillinghast REEF hole, the most iconic being the 17th hole at Indian Hills CC in Kansas City.

#12 on the Yellow?

Amateur Architects - What would be your most iconic template? If any?

I am combining ideas in two different threads here - templates and iconic holes.

The first one, albeit an old hole, would be the par 3 at Garden City, with two large ridges on the sides of the green.

#12 is a special hole.  Took a long time to bring it back in all its splendor but splendid it is!!




Another vote for the Biarritz here...#17 at Westhampton is my favorite. 


I suspect most of you have seen the Westhampton flyover video but for those who haven't, some great template examples here: 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QKhntjZWh4