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Matt Schoolfield

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2024, 10:04:17 PM »
Re: Brambles, I don't think the sheep will be grazing on the fairways at any point in time. I expect they will be used to just graze the rough and the areas out of play. But I could be wrong about that.


The course is spread out over a sizable area. The area "out of play" is huge.
Re: grazing the fairways, while the sheep and cattle do "roam" the fairways at Brora from time to time, they don't do much grazing on the fairways. The mowers keep the turf pretty tight, typical of links courses. The grass in the fairways is not long enough for the sheep to get a mouthful.


Again, almost all the grazing at Brora is done in the rough and areas well out of play.   
I understand. There isn't much to eat on tight turf. Regarding Brambles, however, it's just makes the sheep seem like scenery if they are kept off the fairway intentionally. The idea of keeping them off the greens is understandable, greens are expensive to maintain, and occasionally bunkers too it seems, but if the fairway is too delicate to let them roam on, it all just seems a bit posh for me. I've never been much of a stickler for course conditions, anyway. At what point does having sheep "in view" of the course start counting. To each their own though.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2024, 10:18:22 PM by Matt Schoolfield »

Ben Sims

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2024, 10:11:02 PM »
Re: grazing the fairways, while the sheep and cattle do "roam" the fairways at Brora from time to time, they don't do much grazing on the fairways. The mowers keep the turf pretty tight, typical of links courses. The grass in the fairways is not long enough for the sheep to get a mouthful.


Again, almost all the grazing at Brora is done in the rough and areas well out of play.   
I understand. There isn't much to eat on tight turf. Again, however, it's just makes the sheep seem like scenery if they are kept off the fairway intentionally. The idea of keeping them off the greens is understandable, greens are expensive to maintain, and occasionally bunkers too it seems, but if the fairway is too delicate to let them roam on, it all just seems a bit posh for me. I've never been much of a stickler for course conditions, anyway. At what point does having sheep "in view" of the course start counting. To each their own though.


The livestock aren’t kept off anything but greens intentionally. I’m sure this is very similar to many/most courses with livestock. They’re free to roam anywhere else on the golf course. In burns. In bunkers. Fairways. Rough. Tees. Etc. The fairways aren’t delicate at all. It’s just there isn’t anything to eat there in most cases.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2024, 10:16:40 PM »
Ben, I was referring to Brambles.

Matt Schoolfield

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2024, 10:36:32 PM »
I have updated the post with the a map of the current courses: https://golfcourse.wiki/list/grazing_animals
I'm honestly curious at why Wales is has such a disproportionate presence?

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2024, 12:42:21 AM »
Matt, as David T said, the acreage at Brambles is substantial, and the sheep have quite a bit of "rough" areas to work.  The fairways and greens are Zoysia and there is absolutely no need for them to be tended to by sheep.  The sheep at Brambles are not in any way some gimmick.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Craig Sweet

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2024, 01:33:13 AM »
Ask Mr. Doak about the elk over wintering at Rock Creek....Not livestock but....

Sean_A

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2024, 01:39:45 AM »
Church Stretton definitely had sheep and a few ponies every time I was there.

The Church Stretton, Welshpool and Kington trio is hard to beat if you are looking to do a sheep tour. You can stay in one place and hit them all. In fact, you can add Knighton, it is in the same general area. That said, I would strongly encourage you to play Southerndown as well. Brora gets all the glory for its cows, but I think S’down and Kington are just as good and in better nick.

Good question about Wales and sheep. Perhaps it’s because the lamb is the Welsh national animal.

Happy New Year
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 04:33:51 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Sean_A

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2024, 02:23:52 AM »
Ask Mr. Doak about the elk over wintering at Rock Creek....Not livestock but....

If grazing wildlife is the bar the list would be immense. A lot of courses have deer.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Thomas Dai

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze New
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2024, 05:32:51 AM »
This is my current GB&I listing as updated during the period of this thread.

As investigations continue some are added and some drop-off (see below).

In addition, just because grazing animals were or weren’t at a specific course during someone’s one and only visit ‘x’ number of years ago doesn’t mean they are or aren’t there now. Furthermore small numbers of livestock could well have been happily grazing away in another part of the land while you were there.

Grazing is of course seasonal and/or may fluctuate in some places depending on the farmers livestock holding.

The Heath (Laois, Ire) #
Vaul/Tiree #
Achill Island #
Westward Ho!/RND
Askernish
Lahinch (Ire) (the famous goats!)
Pennard
Southerndown
Brora
Sutton Coldfield (tagged cattle but maybe not now on course)
Machrihanish Dunes
Clyne
Kington
Cleeve Hill
Knole Park (Kent) (deer)
Yelverton
Appleby
Tavistock
Minchinhampton Old
Beverley & East Riding (Yorks)
Baildon (Yorks)
Halifax (Ogden) Yorks
Wrangaton (1st-9) Devon - course closed 2023/4
West Monmouthshire (South Wales)
Merthyr Tydfil
Painswick (cattle occasionally)
Durness
Church Stretton
Lobden (Lancs)
Mulranny (County Mayo, Ire)
Gweedore (Donegal, Ire)
Otway (Donegal, Ire)
New Forest (Hampshire)
Bramshaw (Hamps)
Burley (Hamps)
Isle of Harris
Fair Isle
Fort Augustus (Scot)
Kingarrock
Knighton (Mid-Wales)
Machynylech (Mid-Wales)
Holywell (North Wales)
Barra
lona.
Benbecula
Colonsay
Royal Guernsey
Cockermouth
Ullapool
Traigh
Gairloch
Lybster
Helmsdale
Bonar Bridge
Portmahomac
Newtonmore
Raey

There may be others and some mentioned may no longer do so.

And then there are courses in other countries particularly Aussie and NZ to consider. Likely to be some in rural areas of other countries too I’d have thought.

Atb

# = additions to original post
Deleted = removed from original post

PS: Pesky creatures sheep. Sometimes there on a course when they shouldn’t be. Holes in fences etc!
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 09:19:09 AM by Thomas Dai »

Simon Barrington

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2024, 05:56:16 AM »
This is my current GB&I listing.
As investigations continue some are added and some drop-off.

Dai I recall Deer being prevalent on Tom Williamson's Wollaton Park GC (Nottingham), they are still in the park (over 200 of them) but unsure if still helping maintain the course.

James Reader

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2024, 07:35:18 AM »
Re: Brambles, I don't think the sheep will be grazing on the fairways at any point in time. I expect they will be used to just graze the rough and the areas out of play. But I could be wrong about that.


The course is spread out over a sizable area. The area "out of play" is huge.
Re: grazing the fairways, while the sheep and cattle do "roam" the fairways at Brora from time to time, they don't do much grazing on the fairways. The mowers keep the turf pretty tight, typical of links courses. The grass in the fairways is not long enough for the sheep to get a mouthful.


Again, almost all the grazing at Brora is done in the rough and areas well out of play.   
I understand. There isn't much to eat on tight turf. Regarding Brambles, however, it's just makes the sheep seem like scenery if they are kept off the fairway intentionally. The idea of keeping them off the greens is understandable, greens are expensive to maintain, and occasionally bunkers too it seems, but if the fairway is too delicate to let them roam on, it all just seems a bit posh for me. I've never been much of a stickler for course conditions, anyway. At what point does having sheep "in view" of the course start counting. To each their own though.


There are a number of courses in the UK that use sheep periodically on out-of-play areas (Sherwood Forest and Hollinwell shared a small flock for some years). This is more about management for environmental/ecological reasons than for anything to do with the golf; they are very effective at eating out the plants that would otherwise out-compete against the heather.

James Reader

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2024, 07:42:14 AM »
This is my current GB&I listing.
As investigations continue some are added and some drop-off.
Dai I recall Deer being prevalent on Tom Williamson's Wollaton Park GC (Nottingham), they are still in the park (over 200 of them) but unsure if still helping maintain the course.


Back when I was playing junior golf in Nottinghamshire in the ‘80s, an assistant pro at Wollaton was killed by a stag. If I remember correctly, he was locking up the pro shop at the end of a day during the breeding season.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2024, 01:11:27 PM »

There are a number of courses in the UK that use sheep periodically on out-of-play areas (Sherwood Forest and Hollinwell shared a small flock for some years). This is more about management for environmental/ecological reasons than for anything to do with the golf; they are very effective at eating out the plants that would otherwise out-compete against the heather.


Yes, I believe it's true that some of the courses listed above only allow the animals to graze in the winter months and not during the prime playing season.  This is more common where the goal is to thin out the roughs, as opposed to grazing the fairways . . . I think Pennard is one of those clubs.  Their biggest problem with the animals is that the cows tend to destroy the steep bunker faces.


Which brings up the question of grazing RIGHTS.  On many of these courses the practice of letting animals graze the land exists, not for the benefit of the golf course, but because the golf club does not own the land.  The land is part of a commons where the locals have grazing rights [with certain restrictions], and the golfers are also allowed to use the land.  This is how it began at most links courses, but, like Brora today, the other golf clubs slowly but surely decided to buy the land [or at least the grazing rights] to improve conditions and minimize disruption from the farmers.  That's how it still is at Minchinhampton and Cleeve Hill, and probably many of the others, I just don't know for a fact.

Sean_A

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2024, 01:24:17 PM »

There are a number of courses in the UK that use sheep periodically on out-of-play areas (Sherwood Forest and Hollinwell shared a small flock for some years). This is more about management for environmental/ecological reasons than for anything to do with the golf; they are very effective at eating out the plants that would otherwise out-compete against the heather.


Yes, I believe it's true that some of the courses listed above only allow the animals to graze in the winter months and not during the prime playing season.  This is more common where the goal is to thin out the roughs, as opposed to grazing the fairways . . . I think Pennard is one of those clubs.  Their biggest problem with the animals is that the cows tend to destroy the steep bunker faces.


Which brings up the question of grazing RIGHTS.  On many of these courses the practice of letting animals graze the land exists, not for the benefit of the golf course, but because the golf club does not own the land.  The land is part of a commons where the locals have grazing rights [with certain restrictions], and the golfers are also allowed to use the land.  This is how it began at most links courses, but, like Brora today, the other golf clubs slowly but surely decided to buy the land [or at least the grazing rights] to improve conditions and minimize disruption from the farmers.  That's how it still is at Minchinhampton and Cleeve Hill, and probably many of the others, I just don't know for a fact.

Some clubs own the land, but grazing rights are still upheld as a condition.

What happened at Pennard is the farmers with grazing rights were taking on livestock from other farmers, thus far more cows were grazing than should have been. I believe the club went to court to stop this. I don’t recall seeing cows on my last trip to Pennard. I haven’t seen the ponies in many years.

Regardless, it is my opinion that clubs with controlled sheep grazing have excellent turf and can have great great presentation with blurred transition between fairway and rough.

Happy New Year
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jason Thurman

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2024, 01:56:35 PM »
Dannebrog in Nebraska is really more of a pasture first, golf course second. It's the only course where I've had livestock follow me down fairways like a gallery... until they all bolted about 5 minutes before a huge storm hit.


Whistling Straits is a slightly more formal golf environment, but I believe they still have their small flock of sheep.


Does Ballyhack still have goats?
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2024, 02:19:17 PM »
Dannebrog in Nebraska is really more of a pasture first, golf course second. It's the only course where I've had livestock follow me down fairways like a gallery... until they all bolted about 5 minutes before a huge storm hit.

Whistling Straits is a slightly more formal golf environment, but I believe they still have their small flock of sheep.

Does Ballyhack still have goats?


I have been actively looking for a project where we can graze animals on the fairways, but most of the places in the U.S. have had to be rejected due to coyotes or other predators.

Thomas Dai

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #41 on: December 31, 2024, 03:18:25 PM »
The timing of animals grazing common land and thus on some courses also relates to location, climate and the elevation of the land in question. Animals grazing outdoors when the winter weather becomes extreme isn’t likely to be to their or their farmers advantage especially on exposed, windy hilltops.

Different situations will likely apply at different locations and with different timings.

At some places, Minch’ Old being a prime example, the cattle aren’t actually on the common/course during the winter but are let out to roam in early May when the juiciest, most yummy grass for cattle nourishment has had some Spring growth. Although the fairways at MO are still ok playability wise from early May it’s best not to allow shots to travel off the fairways into the rough as the rough really can be rough for a few weeks.

I’m particularly pleased to hear that Tom D would like a US project where animals could graze the fairways. Can’t quite believe it’s 8 years since I introduced him to the delights of Minch’ Old? Time goes so quickly. Seems like it was near yesterday. Very pleased too that so many others posting herein and lurkers as well have visited and played there. I’m sure more would be appreciated. Negative comments should be directed at Sean though coz it was him who initially suggested I visit the course! :)

It’s appropriate to appreciate however that as Tom also mentions in an earlier post, in some locations various carnivorous animals would like animal grazed courses too! Maybe rustlers as well? Indeed I believe that animal rustling from U.K. commons and the like has occasionally taken place. Not sure if it’s been from commons with courses on them though. Also worth mentioning that there are other factors involved. For example, in the U.K. there are regulations and penalties regarding dogs that worry livestock, especially sheep.

Atb
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 06:35:33 PM by Thomas Dai »

Andrew Harvie

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #42 on: December 31, 2024, 05:18:10 PM »
In Canada, just Liloeet Sheep Pasture Golf Course (hence the name). Paintbrush has sheep now penned in on the entire right side of the ninth hole, but they aren't ever let out of that area. If there are others, I haven't seen or heard about them!
Managing Partner, Golf Club Atlas

Nigel Islam

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #43 on: December 31, 2024, 11:25:53 PM »
The Hermitage in Nashville believe it or has a lot of Sheep.

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #44 on: January 01, 2025, 03:50:16 AM »
Haven’t seen Achill Island mentioned yet.

Simon Barrington

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #45 on: January 01, 2025, 04:31:48 AM »
Would the courses grazed freely by Kangaroos in Australia be part of the consideration?


Anglesey GC - Has become a haven/reserve for them
St Andrews Beach -?


etc.

Thomas Dai

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #46 on: January 01, 2025, 10:03:39 AM »
Haven’t seen Achill Island mentioned yet.
Good call Ally.
Achill added to my list above.
Atb

Thomas Dai

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #47 on: January 01, 2025, 10:18:08 AM »
Would the courses grazed freely by Kangaroos in Australia be part of the consideration?
Anglesey GC - Has become a haven/reserve for them
St Andrews Beach -?
etc.

Probably best to only include domesticated, ie farmed animals, which I suggest would be sheep, cattle, horses and goats. Deer if farmed rather than as general landscape wonderers maybe as well. I wouldn’t include chickens and pigs etc though.

Including others that happen to roam courses and are difficult to keep out or live in burrows on-site could get excessively expansive. So crocs, lions, bears, moose, snakes, etc etc. Similarly with nature reserve type animals.


Indeed there’s a Women’s tour event in Kenya where giraffes and zebra etc roam the course and a few courses internationally where you wouldn’t want to walk too far off line or be around at nightfall etc.

Atb

« Last Edit: January 01, 2025, 01:16:00 PM by Thomas Dai »

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2025, 11:35:23 AM »
In Canada, just Liloeet Sheep Pasture Golf Course (hence the name). Paintbrush has sheep now penned in on the entire right side of the ninth hole, but they aren't ever let out of that area. If there are others, I haven't seen or heard about them!
What about Banff and Jasper if you count Elk as livestock.

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: List of courses where livestock still graze
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2025, 07:18:21 PM »
Matt,

The Heath Golf Club in Ireland (County Laois) has sheep grazing the course.

Here's a video with some evidence:
https://www.theheathgc.ie/flyover-video

A short note from the club's website:

The land is owned by the government of Ireland, and the Club has a licence to operate the course granted by the Office of Public Works (OPW). As the site is shared with grazing sheep the Club operates within guidelines set by an agreement with Graziers representatives, Club representatives and monitored by the OPW. For example, a programme of removal of non-native trees is almost complete. Use of fertilisers is prohibited.

BTW, Laois is pronounced in the same way as a dog "leash".

Back in the 1980s, cattle grazed the Coastguard nine as Rosapenna, but not any more.


This article mentions some courses in Germany that have introducing sheep in recent years:
https://golfsustainable.com/en/the-sheep-becomes-a-crowd-favorite-in-golf/
« Last Edit: January 01, 2025, 07:43:48 PM by Dónal Ó Ceallaigh »