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Mark_Fine

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2024, 05:19:45 PM »
Mike,
I consider myself a purist and many of my favorite courses are from the classic era but I am not one for courses just being museum pieces.  They were all designed to play a game on and as that game has changed, most of them need to change with it (especially the ones that are 100 plus years old).  Yes keep some just as they were in the past for posterity sake but most others need to be at least tweaked to remain relevant.  Frankly many have changed already anyway whether we like it or not just because of wear and tear and maintenance practices and because they are not static objects.  Be clear making courses more relevant doesn’t mean wholesale renovation.  Many just need refreshing and touching up as they age.


As said many times, maybe only 10% of courses deserve some form of restoration but 100% should at least be studied to understand their evolution before making any kind of change. 


I am not sure how making a course more relevant or restoring architectural integrity disrespects the individuality of a course?  Wholesale changes might do that but moving a bunker 25 yards down the fairway like Forse for example did on relatively flat land at Lehigh on #1 didn’t disrespect anything.




Adam Lawrence

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2024, 05:21:20 PM »
Tom makes the most important point. Architects don't just plonk a bunker down because they think it should be at a certain distance: they reflect the topography of the ground. Colt, for one, often put bunkers at what might be perceived as random distances, because he saw a landform that would suit a bunker. No landform, no bunker. QED they can't just be moved like that.

A case in point is the bunkering on 18 Swinley Forest. It looks bizarre. I see many newish bunkers out of place. I even see them in blind locations because they are at the distance for bigger club hitters. It might be different if the work entailed shaping out well beyond the hazard to tie into another feature, but this is rarely done.



I’m pretty sure that Colt originally designed the hole to favour an approach from the left side of the fairway, close to the boundary. The house there was built at about the same time the golf course was, by club founder Alexander Davey. Later, the use of strategic OB became impossible, and imo the club has been struggling to find a solution ever since.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Matt_Cohn

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2024, 05:24:56 PM »


This was a real problem for us at Crooked Stick last year.  Mr. Dye made his landing areas rise up to the golfer at 250-280 yards off the tees, but now the best players hit it over that, and if you move the bunkers out to 320 you can't even see them unless you build weird landforms to prop them up.



Tom, not to get off topic, but what did you end up doing for those holes?

mike_malone

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2024, 05:37:02 PM »
Mike,
I consider myself a purist and many of my favorite courses are from the classic era but I am not one for courses just being museum pieces.  They were all designed to play a game on and as that game has changed, most of them need to change with it (especially the ones that are 100 plus years old).  Yes keep some just as they were in the past for posterity sake but most others need to be at least tweaked to remain relevant.  Frankly many have changed already anyway whether we like it or not just because of wear and tear and maintenance practices and because they are not static objects.  Be clear making courses more relevant doesn’t mean wholesale renovation.  Many just need refreshing and touching up as they age.


As said many times, maybe only 10% of courses deserve some form of restoration but 100% should at least be studied to understand their evolution before making any kind of change. 


I am not sure how making a course more relevant or restoring architectural integrity disrespects the individuality of a course?  Wholesale changes might do that but moving a bunker 25 yards down the fairway like Forse for example did on relatively flat land at Lehigh on #1 didn’t disrespect anything.


I don’t see them as museum pieces but don’t think the idea of certain yardages to hazards or clubs to hit to the green are worth spending money on.


Your example of Lehigh shows that now and then some change may work but significant changes aren’t worth it.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2024, 05:47:53 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Mark_Fine

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2024, 06:07:16 PM »
Mike,
Alternative tees can address a lot of issues but unless the course has elasticity as Mackenzie proposed (Flynn did as well since I know you like to refer to him), you can’t always address the concerns. 


One of the current debates many are having at my home Flynn course is regarding the bunkers.  Many feel the bunkering is very penal for the average/high handicapper but hardly if at all in play for the above average players.  I do agree we have a lot of bunkers that good players never see but until recently there has been reluctance to change anything. Our course is not at all unique in this regard. 


A fairway bunker at 180-200 yards for most decent players is about as relevant as a fairway bunker at 250-270 for a top professional - neither player even notices that it is there.  Whereas for the high handicapper, it is staring right at them.  I have never believed in dumbing down golf courses but when the majority of hazards are primarily penal for poor golfers, it becomes no fun for them and not very challenging for the better players.  Again alternative tees can often address this but not always.  And multiple tees are a whole new topic and once again some here feel that too many sets of tees is taboo.  That is something I have changed my opinion on over the years especially the addition of shorter tees.  All these things factor into what if anything should be done/changed on a golf course.   

mike_malone

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2024, 07:07:38 PM »
Mike,
Alternative tees can address a lot of issues but unless the course has elasticity as Mackenzie proposed (Flynn did as well since I know you like to refer to him), you can’t always address the concerns. 


One of the current debates many are having at my home Flynn course is regarding the bunkers.  Many feel the bunkering is very penal for the average/high handicapper but hardly if at all in play for the above average players.  I do agree we have a lot of bunkers that good players never see but until recently there has been reluctance to change anything. Our course is not at all unique in this regard. 


A fairway bunker at 180-200 yards for most decent players is about as relevant as a fairway bunker at 250-270 for a top professional - neither player even notices that it is there.  Whereas for the high handicapper, it is staring right at them.  I have never believed in dumbing down golf courses but when the majority of hazards are primarily penal for poor golfers, it becomes no fun for them and not very challenging for the better players.  Again alternative tees can often address this but not always.  And multiple tees are a whole new topic and once again some here feel that too many sets of tees is taboo.  That is something I have changed my opinion on over the years especially the addition of shorter tees.  All these things factor into what if anything should be done/changed on a golf course.


I believe I’m thinking of 15 at Lehigh and it might be the type of bunkering you describe but I love how that right bunker invites the shot because the land kicks left there. 


This makes me think another way to deal with technology is to accentuate the dogleg by adding tees at a different angle.
AKA Mayday

Tom_Doak

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2024, 08:14:35 PM »

This was a real problem for us at Crooked Stick last year.  Mr. Dye made his landing areas rise up to the golfer at 250-280 yards off the tees, but now the best players hit it over that, and if you move the bunkers out to 320 you can't even see them unless you build weird landforms to prop them up.

Tom, not to get off topic, but what did you end up doing for those holes?


My recommendation was to eliminate some of the newer, longer bunkers and just go with rough on the mounds . . . which would be a harder and more unpredictable shot for the good players.  But I don't know if they let Eric follow through with that or not.  Mr. Dye had built some pretty weird looking bunkers a few years before he passed away.

Tim Rooney

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2024, 08:17:36 PM »
I wonder Tom Doak’s perception regarding Ekwanok CC?When I played the course (20)yrs ago,I was amazed noticing most back tees had room for
(20)yd additions.The course was wonderful with its routing and old style Walter Travis bunkering but played very short.Would the TDoak approach of extending the long holes,only,and leaving the short holes,alone,improve the course and deliver today’s golf game relevancy?It certainly appears the older membership guards the design as
NGL or others of that ERA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 01:57:00 AM by Tim Rooney »

Mark_Fine

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2024, 10:32:06 AM »
Mike,
Some bunkers simply don’t make sense to move.  The one on the corner of the dogleg at #15 at Lehigh is one example.  But there are others that if done properly no one would know that they weren’t placed there to begin with.  Those are the kind of bunkers that can be considered to move. 

There are literally countless courses out there designed by almost every classic and modern architect where most of the features were built and not found.  When I say built, I mean the architect used their discretion as to where to locate hazards/features and did so with strategy, style, aesthetics, challenge,…in mind.  All architects have to work with the landforms etc on the site they are given, but very few sites are like Sand Hills where the course is already there and they just have to find it  :D

As Tillinghast once said, he always tried to find existing natural holes but many had to be manufactured and “knocked into shape to hold their head high in polite society”. 

Regarding Flynn, we both know he didn’t like blind hazards but do you really think that the only natural hazards/natural landforns on his courses were all visible ones?  He just elected to avoid using the natural blind ones and either blended them away or worked around them. That was his style and when working on a Flynn course you respect they.  Fownes on the other hand could care less if a hazard was blind.  The golfer had to learn to deal with it.  An architect like Charles Banks had modern equipment, he built what he wanted where it wanted it. 

To get back to the main topic, preserving or restoring architectural integrity is a real challenge and is/can be controversial and is not easy or always obvious what to do. But the bottomline is sometimes a course evolves to where it is simply no fun for higher handicappers and no longer interesting or challenging for better golfers.  What do you do?  On maybe a select few as Tom Doak once said, you just leave them as is for historical sake. But on the others,….
« Last Edit: December 31, 2024, 10:59:57 AM by Mark_Fine »

Phil Young

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2024, 12:48:57 PM »
Mark, since you mentioned Tilly, and the theme of this discussion is “Preservation of Architectural Integrity in Face of Technology,” there are two major challenges that anyone working on a golden age golf course almost never takes into consideration, and this includes when working on Tilly’s courses.
      The first has to do with understanding that once the course was designed and staked out, the person(s) who oversaw the construction of the course were usually not Tilly or his construction supervisors, they were either someone hired by the club or members of the club. Why is that important? Here’s a good example. The May 8th, 1936 edition of the Minneapolis Star, contained the following headline: “State Amateur Golf Meet May be Most Explosive in 39-year Reign.”
      The article stated, “Take that  on  the  great  authority  of  the  world’s  greatest  golf course architect, A. W. Tillinghast. He didn’t mince any words yesterday when he dropped in at Golden Valley and took a look at one of the two courses he designed in this section of the country, the other being Rochester Golf Club.
      ‘“The Tendency is away from deep traps,” declared this construction emissary of the Professional Golfers’ Association. “In fact, I have a sneaking suspicion that somebody pulled a fast one on me. When I laid out Golden Valley, I did not intend that it should have so many traps or such deep ones. That is distinctly against the modern trend.”
      Unless one has the information that this is how the course was originally built, and that it was done that way in direct opposition to how Tilly actually designed the bunkering for the course, how can one preserve the “architectural integrity” of the course regardless of technological changes to the game?
      Fortunately, golf course architect Kevin Norby did a wonderful job in how the bunkers were rebuilt, and in some cases relocated and added to, during the restorative reconstruction of the course in the last 2 years. When the question of bunker depth was brought up, the decision was made to keep them that way as they were always kept at the depths as originally built over the years. Over the years since it was built, this made the course play more challenging, and gave it the reputation as being difficult, a reputation that the members took pride inand wanted to keep.   
      The second one begins with the question, did the architect who designed the course expect it to be changed through the years that followed due to technological changes in equipment? Consider this example: On January 6th, 1936, during his PGA Course Consultation Tour. In his letter to George Jacobus, president of the P. G. A., Tilly wrote:  “I stopped  over  here  [San Antonio]  over  Sunday on my eighteen holes at Brackenridge Park and nine holes at Riverside. I planned the [first] course exactly twenty years ago and it is here that the Texas Open has been played for years. I was rather disappointed in it for there seems little effort  to keep pace with the advance of golf during the twenty years of its existence.”
      Tilly expected changes to be made to courses that he designed caused by changes in the equipment used to play the game over time. He actually left instructions at a number of his clubs as to changes to the course he had just designed and built in the years that followed so that it could keep up with those technological changes. That is why he stated on a number of occasions that he would allow for the building of new tees further back from the ones originally built, thereby adding lngth to these holes when needed in the future. Here is one example of his expecting changes to be made to a course of his and how he planned for it:
      On July 20th, 1930, a bit less than three months after work began on a major course renovation project, the San Francisco Chronicle announced, “San Francisco Golf Club Making Course Easier for Average Players.”   
      The article that followed stated, “San Francisco Golf Club’s course, regarded as the severest test on the Pacific Coast, is being humanized by an operation to remove excess traps. Dixwell Davenport, chairman of the greens committee, directs the job…”
      Davenport further stated, “When architect Tillinghast turned over the old course to the San Francisco club he left suggestions for future development. These are now being carried into effect, say directors of the club.” (bold and underline mine).
      In addition, he visited the club every year from 1932-1938 during which numerous changes, both major and minor, were made to the course per his instructions. These are just 2 examples regarding Tilly’s work, but he wasn’t the only architect who expected changes to be made to their original designs. What better example is there that Pinehurst #2 and Donald Ross. He lived on the course for many years until he died, making changes to it over that time.
      That is why I am passionate about the importance for a golf course to do or get accurate and specific research regarding the golden age golf course he has been commissioned to work on. Without the correct information, and proper understanding of it, their ability to “Preserve the Architectural Integrity in Face of Technology,” is impossible.

Tom_Doak

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2024, 01:18:34 PM »

Davenport further stated, “When architect Tillinghast turned over the old course to the San Francisco club he left suggestions for future development. These are now being carried into effect, say directors of the club.” (bold and underline mine).
      In addition, he visited the club every year from 1932-1938 during which numerous changes, both major and minor, were made to the course per his instructions.



Considering the economy of the years 1932-38, isn't it possible that Tillinghast himself was tinkering around mostly to help pay the bills, rather than to preserve the architectural integrity of a course that was not very old?


Jack Nicklaus and company keep going back and making changes to their own courses every 10-20 years wherever their clients will pay for it.  As someone mentioned early on, perhaps that is one fault [or benefit?] of placing bunkers with a certain player in mind . . . because it necessitates that you're just going to have to keep changing them.


I don't think that's what Alister MacKenzie was talking about when he stressed the importance of "finality".




Mark_Fine

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2024, 01:32:36 PM »
Nice post Phil.  You know the story about the two holes at Suneagles.  It happens and that is where research is critical.

Just think for example if race tracks didn’t change for new technology.  The sport would be down right dangerous even more so than it already is.  There are some parallels to golf in that regard!   Just like golf courses, race tracks were designed for certain kinds of equipment.


Golf courses were and are designed for a sport to be played on them just like race tracks were designed to be raced on.  They were not designed simply to look at like a piece of art.  Some just need slight tweaking, some need an overhaul.  There in lies the debate  :D

Phil Young

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2024, 02:32:46 PM »
Tom, you make it sound as if Tilly woke up and realized he had no money. That wasn't the case. He certainly wasn't working on too many new projects, in fact there were just handful of them. Then again, he was also the owner of his late father's rubber goods business which stayed open until almost 10 years after Tilly died in 1942 from which he recieved the profits. He also still had money coming in from his Antiques store and sales through major antiques auctions he sold at. One item in particular that he owned that shows the depth of his collection: he owned the bloody gloves worn by Mary Todd Lincoln the day her husband was assasinated. Although no longer living the "high life" he and his wife were comfortable enough to take a month-long vacation in Mexico in late 1933.
      Actually, every time that Tilly visted SFGC from 1932-1938 it was at the request of the club, and yet there were occasions when he didn't go out there. In the August, 1932 issue of Golf Illustrated, Tilly wrote, "This month we have a communication from California. It was addressed to me by...Dixwell Davenport. It concerns their first hole. In brief, this green was added to the first hole two years ago after the club had acquired adjoining property..."
      The reason Davenport sent the letter was because some members believed that the new green made the hole far too difficult because it was now 509 yards and "beyond the playing of two shots." The members wanted it relocated as they felt that it was both too long and the green itself was both too small and invisible for the second shot that was being played to it.
      Tilly replied by letter and not by going out as Davenport hoped he would as he had already been there at the beginning of the year. In brief, as Tilly wrote in his article and also to Davenport, "As I recall the setting of this hole after some years, the play is directly into the west and into the stiff winds of the enarby Pacific. This immediately would indicate that the yardage of the hole (509) really does not represent that actual playing length, which is obviously beyonf two shots. Consequently the hole is a real three-shotter, two long ones and a pitch to the green. Under these circumstances I see nothing wrong with the green."
      As for the green not being visible on the second shot, Tilly wrote, "So long as it is visible for the approach after the second shot, it is entirely sound. No hole may be condemned as blind if it is so because the feeble hitting of the player makes it so. Some of the best holes are great because visibility of the green is only because a fine shot opens it to sight."
      The reason for using SFGC as an example of how Tilly expected his courses to change in order to keep up with the changes in equipment technology is because the article above is in the public domain. Anyone can look it up on newspapers.com. There are a number of other examples of his redesigning his own work within several years of when he first designed them, but as the information showing these changes can only be found in club's board minutes and other private correspondence, I'm not at liberty to publicly share them.


 

Mark_Fine

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2024, 02:48:30 PM »
Phil,
Another interesting post.  It is the kind of research I love and do a ton of myself.  Given what you said about SFGC, what are your thoughts about the current status of the course and the pure restoration work as Tom called it.  I love the golf course but have not done the research on it like I would do for one of my projects. 

Phil Young

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #39 on: December 31, 2024, 03:39:58 PM »
I can't speak to the current status as I haven't been out to the club since 2018. Covid in 2020-22 made itimpossible for me to travel along with some health issues that resulted in 4 surgeries along the way. I do have plans to get out there this year and am greatly looking forward to it. Tom and his associates did really good work going all the way back nearly 20 years now if I'm remembering correctly. I can say that I've loved the course and club from the 1st day I set foot there about 15 years ago.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #40 on: December 31, 2024, 04:03:40 PM »
Thanks Phil.  Yes I love the golf course and have played it often.  I was discussing it a bit at the ASGCA annual meeting in Nov with Sean Tully who was an invited speaker.  I have known Sean for years and his take is very interesting. Anxious to hear your thoughts once you see it. 

Mike Bodo

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2025, 12:16:01 PM »
Tom makes the most important point. Architects don't just plonk a bunker down because they think it should be at a certain distance: they reflect the topography of the ground. Colt, for one, often put bunkers at what might be perceived as random distances, because he saw a landform that would suit a bunker. No landform, no bunker. QED they can't just be moved like that.
Ross did much at certain courses he designed. He'd often place bunkers in spots that leant themselves to them for aesthetic appeal rather than as a strategic hazard. Then again, before Ross died he was going back to some of his older courses and tweaking them to fit the modern game, which had changed dramatically with the advent of steel shafted golf clubs. Had he been afforded 10 - 15 yrs. more of life it would have been interesting how many of his courses he would have revisited and made changes to and how.
"90% of all putts left short are missed." - Yogi Berra

Mark_Fine

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Re: Preservation of Architectural Integrity in face of technology New
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2025, 05:36:43 PM »
There is some discussion on another thread about Seminole.  The site is pretty
much dead flat.  Ross didn’t find that course at least not most of it, he built it and he clearly had golf strategy in mind in where he placed his hazards, etc.  For some reason many think too many courses/features were already there and the architect just needed to expose them wherever they were.  That might have often been the case on a true Links course but rarely elsewhere.  For sure many were minimalists especially with the equipment and technology and budgets they had at hand but they moved dirt. Do so research on an inland course like Colt’s St. George’s Hill and you will see dynamite was his friend  ;D
He built what he wanted and where he needed it if he didn’t find it there naturally.

Mike, why did they call Flynn the Nature “Faker”. Think about it. If the land form is natural and already there, what faking is required? 


Maybe we need a separate thread titled which architects just settled for what they found and never faked it? 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2025, 05:54:12 PM by Mark_Fine »