Still Have Sand Hills as my #1 C&C, but #2???

[Jonathan Cummings]

Here's mine, just ahead of Friars and Trails and way ahead St Lucia and Streamsong.




https://golfweek.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2024/12/19/shanquin-bay-china-hainan-island-golfweeks-best-golf-course-asia/77057187007/

[Tom_Doak]

How much do the dance reviews influence your choice?  And if the answer is “none”, why would you include that in your article?


It’s a fine course, but they do have a history of going all out to impress raters.  And sometimes I wonder if anyone besides raters ever plays there.

[Bernie Bell]

"'Shanqin Bay is more like a family than a golf club. ... It starts with the employees who not only work together but live together. ... It then carries over to the members who feel like when they arrive at the front gate, they have finally made it home,' executive secretary Joey Garon said.
Family indeed. No better example can be given, as Shanqin Bay makes available three meals a day for all 150 employees, 365 days a year."
Weird.  Who pays for all that?  And why?  How many members are there and at what cost?

[Steve Abt]

It certainly sounds like a unique experience, and I would love to read another article that examines some of the oddities mentioned in the article and above. A lot of things presented as charming seem a little off, especially considering its location in an authoritarian country with a less-than-stellar human rights record. (Yes, I know that describes just about everywhere these days.)

[Scott Warren]

Jonathan,

Could Friars Head sneak back into #2 if Kenny Bakst danced for you post-round?

[Jonathan Cummings]

How much do the dance reviews influence your choice?  And if the answer is “none”, why would you include that in your article?


It’s a fine course, but they do have a history of going all out to impress raters.  And sometimes I wonder if anyone besides raters ever plays there.

Thomas my boy - why wouldn't you include that in the article?  It's a course/club review article not narrowly focused just on the rating world.  The fact the caddies were also dancers is not something you often see, thus the mention.


I think you may be right that they are attuned to hosting raters.  They have probably hosted half of you GM folks! 

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jonathan,

Could Friars Head sneak back into #2 if Kenny Bakst danced for you post-round?

yuck yuck.  Just was never a huge fan of the potato field holes.  But hole ten and beyond, aesthetics and strategy/tactics off the map.

[mike_malone]

Jonathan,

Could Friars Head sneak back into #2 if Kenny Bakst danced for you post-round?

yuck yuck.  Just was never a huge fan of the potato field holes.  But hole ten and beyond, aesthetics and strategy/tactics off the map.

This is my take.

[mike_malone]

I haven’t been to many C+C but Hidden Creek is a well designed golf course with variety and very interesting greens.

[Michael Morandi]

Maybe the architecture is good but I’m not interested in playing courses with sit down meals on course, just like I don’t like “comfort stations” serving tequila every 4 holes at resort courses.

[Quinn Thompson]

Shanqin Bay is a beautiful golf course, with an array of thoughtful holes and faultless green sites. The bunkers are ok too…


Spent +/- 18 months there with Bill and the boys ( Jim Craig, James Duncan, Dave Zinkand, John Hawker, Landscapes Unlimited, and likely around 100 migrant laborers - mostly from the island of Hainan.) Started with clearing the pineapple fields, to digging some bunkers, to watching it rain, to coring out all the greens, watching it rain some more, and sticking around at the end to get the native jungle in line - with Keeper Chris May ( Packers fan, unfortunately. ) It was a tough place to build - I think I buried my mind in one of those bunkers out there.


We all ate lunch with the staff there as well: it’s not too difficult, there’s no ham and cheese sandwiches involved. 3 ladies form the nearby village would prepare 2 large pots of rice, one large pot of meats (?), and one large pot of vegetables everyday at lunch, and you would get in line with your tin bowl and grab a scoop of each, eat it in the yard, and then rinse your bowl out for the following day’s feast. Probably cost those ladies 20 USD a day to make lunch for 100 hungry bodies.


Regarding the lunch out on the course: yeah, maybe it’s too much - but I think an argument can be made that there’s an appreciative difference between having a basket of fresh dumplings on a porch overlooking your next tee shot vs. having a shot of shitty tequila and a chocolate chip cookie next to a cat path and an oversized trash bin “When in Rome,” they often say.


I have a great story about lunch there one day, in the yard. It’ll be in the book: “ And Her Own Name There: The building of Shanqin Bay Golf Club.” It will be finished sometime in the next 2 - 20 years.

[Chris Hughes]

How much do the dance reviews influence your choice?  And if the answer is “none”, why would you include that in your article?


It’s a fine course, but they do have a history of going all out to impress raters.  And sometimes I wonder if anyone besides raters ever plays there.

👆👆👆


"Raters" should be required to "secret shop" at their own expense -- and -- limit their evaluation to only what is experienced between the opening tee-ball and the final putt.

[Jason Thurman]

Who should require them to do so, Chris?


I can't totally decide whether I love or hate the fundamental concept of stopping for a meal every 4-6 holes. Sure it's pretentious and unnecessary. On the other hand, I would totally love doing it.

[Chris Hughes]

Who should require them to do so, Chris?

Themselves.

[Jeff Schley]

Very nice article Jonathan.  I'm not a member there nor a rater. I paid my own way and my opinions carry no weight anywhere in the world of golf. However, my one visit to Shanqin Bay was spectacular. I agree with Jonathan's assessment and it was the single best golf experience I have ever had.



Separate the course from the experience. Happy to, I thought the green complexes were very good. It is built on mountains and a criticism could be there it is too up and down. I would agree, but look at where they did build it and made it possible. Then their superintendent has taken a harsh environment and kept it in immaculate condition. Criticize the location of the course, but I can't think of a way they could have made it better IMHO. They are maintaining it, like a neighbor who keeps their lawn the best of the block, with pride. I'd put it at a solid 8 as a golf course. I'm also trying not to consider the views and scenery which are picturesque themselves.


Now add in the experience, which because of it's unique location and staffing needs, lives together in relative seclusion. Similar to a cruise ship where staff do multiple roles and maybe perform entertainment as well, they really pull it off well with a smile. So they have 2 halfway houses instead of one. So it is a sit down meal. Do we malign Japanese courses for their longstanding tradition of an hour lunch between 9's?  I think we embrace it, as a welcome unique tradition. So I embraced the Shanqin Bay halfway houses similarly, it is impressive.

Caddies do an attentive job and I appreciate that English isn't their first language. They are probably studying and practicing it as it would help themselves progress in their role and other roles. It was a nice touch, when I first met my caddie on the range, where she presented a personalized card to me introducing herself and that she would do her best with English that day. Necessary?  No absolutely not, but a nice touch, yes totally and just adds to the experience. Does it take the golf course rating from 8 to 9?  No, but the experience is so well curated in all areas, I came away with the best golf experience I have had.


I'd like to hear anyone who has actually been there give their opinion, mine is above.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Shanqin Bay is a beautiful golf course, with an array of thoughtful holes and faultless green sites. The bunkers are ok too…


Spent +/- 18 months there with Bill and the boys ( Jim Craig, James Duncan, Dave Zinkand, John Hawker, Landscapes Unlimited, and likely around 100 migrant laborers - mostly from the island of Hainan.) Started with clearing the pineapple fields, to digging some bunkers, to watching it rain, to coring out all the greens, watching it rain some more, and sticking around at the end to get the native jungle in line - with Keeper Chris May ( Packers fan, unfortunately. ) It was a tough place to build - I think I buried my mind in one of those bunkers out there.


We all ate lunch with the staff there as well: it’s not too difficult, there’s no ham and cheese sandwiches involved. 3 ladies form the nearby village would prepare 2 large pots of rice, one large pot of meats (?), and one large pot of vegetables everyday at lunch, and you would get in line with your tin bowl and grab a scoop of each, eat it in the yard, and then rinse your bowl out for the following day’s feast. Probably cost those ladies 20 USD a day to make lunch for 100 hungry bodies.


Regarding the lunch out on the course: yeah, maybe it’s too much - but I think an argument can be made that there’s an appreciative difference between having a basket of fresh dumplings on a porch overlooking your next tee shot vs. having a shot of shitty tequila and a chocolate chip cookie next to a cat path and an oversized trash bin “When in Rome,” they often say.


I have a great story about lunch there one day, in the yard. It’ll be in the book: “ And Her Own Name There: The building of Shanqin Bay Golf Club.” It will be finished sometime in the next 2 - 20 years.

Curious Quinn - were cobras as common as some said?  We didn't see any the few days we were there.  How often did the construction crew run into them?

[Quinn Thompson]

I never saw a cobra out there, Jonathan. Perhaps that’s just an old island tale - like the Irish and their Welshman, Patrick.


That’s a good write up Jeff. Solid take.


Did you play the old 17th hole ? If not, did the new 17th hole distract you from the tide between ?


The lunches, during the round: It’s interesting, and simple - if the Japanese have one lunch in between, the Chinese will have two. That feud is obviously deep and forever written.

[Tom_Doak]

Very nice article Jonathan.  I'm not a member there nor a rater. I paid my own way and my opinions carry no weight anywhere in the world of golf. However, my one visit to Shanqin Bay was spectacular. I agree with Jonathan's assessment and it was the single best golf experience I have ever had.

Jeff S:  I am curious how you arranged to play the course?

"Raters" should be required to "secret shop" at their own expense -- and -- limit their evaluation to only what is experienced between the opening tee-ball and the final putt.

Chris, I can tell you that won't happen at Shanqin Bay.  My own experience with them proves the point.


I had heard great things about the golf course, but I had also heard that they were one of the courses that contracted with a GOLF Magazine panelist back in the day to cater to the raters, and I didn't want to get in the middle of that.  So, for the four years I was working on a project on Hainan Island, I never went to see the golf course.


On my last visit, I mentioned to my client and his staff that it was a shame I'd never gotten down to Shanqin Bay.  We called the general manager, but he said that the golf course was not in its best shape and that he couldn't accommodate a visit at that time.  But, then one of guys on our project said he knew the new golf course superintendent, and he was sure he could arrange for me to go, "off the record".  And so I went to see it on my last day in the country.  [We didn't play, even though the golf course was in perfect shape, and there wasn't a soul out there.]


Two days later, I heard that the superintendent had been fired, for showing me around without permission.  [He had posted about it on Instagram!]  I had to call Bill Coore once I got back to America and apologize for the whole episode, and hope that he could use his influence to get the young superintendent his job back.


I'm not sure I can 100% agree with you that only the experience between the first tee and 18th green should matter in one's assessment of a course, and even that leaves a loophole for extravagant half-way houses.  [They might even move the dance revue to the turn!] 


But, you'll pardon me for thinking that maybe Shanqin Bay is a little too controlling about which panelists visit the course and exactly what they say.


And that's a shame, if it casts a shadow on all the hard work that Quinn and his comrades did there.  But it does make me wonder how many times he's been able to go back.

[Michael Moore]

How much do the dance reviews influence your choice?  And if the answer is “none”, why would you include that in your article?

My home course has neither dancing girls, nor two on-course restaurants, nor a starter, nor caddies, nor a clubhouse, nor a halfway house. At times we don't even have rakes. When my New York City friends go back to their parties, they rave about this absence of infrastructure. When I go to parties, I rave about the pet pheasant at the Royal Birkdale halfway house. Give the dancing girls a break, they are working hard and appear to be unique in world golf.

[Quinn Thompson]

Beautiful words, Mr. Moore. “New York City friend”…love it.


Tom, I’ve only been back once, and that was about ten years ago. I stopped by there on the way to Japan - where I’ve somehow been ever since ! And I paid my own way there ( wasn’t work related ), first flying to Hong Kong, then to Haikou, then taking the train South to Boao before finally jumping on a motorbike / taxi to the golf course. Seemed like yesterday. The place does mean a lot to me ( again, my mind was buried somewhere in that soil ), but some of the people there mean the world to me - particularly a handful of ladies that worked with me on all my tasks. They’re my Hainanses Aunts, and I love them dearly. I just had to say “hello”. Didn’t think I’d be in the same hemisphere again.


And I didn’t even play golf then. Had no real desire too. Looked at a few holes by accident, that’s about it. I was there to see old friends and by chance, have lunch in the nice new cafeteria.

[Tom Dunne]

Long before I had a tiny, struggling golf magazine, I had a tiny, struggling golf blog. One of the better pieces published in its Great Recession run was an account by Dave Zinkand on the daily life of the C&C team during the construction of Shanqin Bay. Thanks to the Internet Archive, it survives to this day, pictures and all. It includes a number of in-progress course photos as well as detailed commentary regarding Quinn's shifting hairstyles.



I think it's a nice relic as far as early Shanqin lore is concerned:


https://web.archive.org/web/20110915014123/http://www.out-and-back.net/?p=1840