Still Have Sand Hills as my #1 C&C, but #2???

[Jonathan Cummings]

Here's mine, just ahead of Friars and Trails and way ahead St Lucia and Streamsong.




https://golfweek.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2024/12/19/shanquin-bay-china-hainan-island-golfweeks-best-golf-course-asia/77057187007/

[Tom_Doak]

How much do the dance reviews influence your choice?  And if the answer is “none”, why would you include that in your article?


It’s a fine course, but they do have a history of going all out to impress raters.  And sometimes I wonder if anyone besides raters ever plays there.

[Bernie Bell]

"'Shanqin Bay is more like a family than a golf club. ... It starts with the employees who not only work together but live together. ... It then carries over to the members who feel like when they arrive at the front gate, they have finally made it home,' executive secretary Joey Garon said.
Family indeed. No better example can be given, as Shanqin Bay makes available three meals a day for all 150 employees, 365 days a year."
Weird.  Who pays for all that?  And why?  How many members are there and at what cost?

[Steve Abt]

It certainly sounds like a unique experience, and I would love to read another article that examines some of the oddities mentioned in the article and above. A lot of things presented as charming seem a little off, especially considering its location in an authoritarian country with a less-than-stellar human rights record. (Yes, I know that describes just about everywhere these days.)

[Scott Warren]

Jonathan,

Could Friars Head sneak back into #2 if Kenny Bakst danced for you post-round?

[Jonathan Cummings]

How much do the dance reviews influence your choice?  And if the answer is “none”, why would you include that in your article?


It’s a fine course, but they do have a history of going all out to impress raters.  And sometimes I wonder if anyone besides raters ever plays there.

Thomas my boy - why wouldn't you include that in the article?  It's a course/club review article not narrowly focused just on the rating world.  The fact the caddies were also dancers is not something you often see, thus the mention.


I think you may be right that they are attuned to hosting raters.  They have probably hosted half of you GM folks! 

[Jonathan Cummings]

Jonathan,

Could Friars Head sneak back into #2 if Kenny Bakst danced for you post-round?

yuck yuck.  Just was never a huge fan of the potato field holes.  But hole ten and beyond, aesthetics and strategy/tactics off the map.

[mike_malone]

Jonathan,

Could Friars Head sneak back into #2 if Kenny Bakst danced for you post-round?

yuck yuck.  Just was never a huge fan of the potato field holes.  But hole ten and beyond, aesthetics and strategy/tactics off the map.

This is my take.

[mike_malone]

I haven’t been to many C+C but Hidden Creek is a well designed golf course with variety and very interesting greens.

[Michael Morandi]

Maybe the architecture is good but I’m not interested in playing courses with sit down meals on course, just like I don’t like “comfort stations” serving tequila every 4 holes at resort courses.

[Quinn Thompson]

Shanqin Bay is a beautiful golf course, with an array of thoughtful holes and faultless green sites. The bunkers are ok too…


Spent +/- 18 months there with Bill and the boys ( Jim Craig, James Duncan, Dave Zinkand, John Hawker, Landscapes Unlimited, and likely around 100 migrant laborers - mostly from the island of Hainan.) Started with clearing the pineapple fields, to digging some bunkers, to watching it rain, to coring out all the greens, watching it rain some more, and sticking around at the end to get the native jungle in line - with Keeper Chris May ( Packers fan, unfortunately. ) It was a tough place to build - I think I buried my mind in one of those bunkers out there.


We all ate lunch with the staff there as well: it’s not too difficult, there’s no ham and cheese sandwiches involved. 3 ladies form the nearby village would prepare 2 large pots of rice, one large pot of meats (?), and one large pot of vegetables everyday at lunch, and you would get in line with your tin bowl and grab a scoop of each, eat it in the yard, and then rinse your bowl out for the following day’s feast. Probably cost those ladies 20 USD a day to make lunch for 100 hungry bodies.


Regarding the lunch out on the course: yeah, maybe it’s too much - but I think an argument can be made that there’s an appreciative difference between having a basket of fresh dumplings on a porch overlooking your next tee shot vs. having a shot of shitty tequila and a chocolate chip cookie next to a cat path and an oversized trash bin “When in Rome,” they often say.


I have a great story about lunch there one day, in the yard. It’ll be in the book: “ And Her Own Name There: The building of Shanqin Bay Golf Club.” It will be finished sometime in the next 2 - 20 years.

[Chris Hughes]

How much do the dance reviews influence your choice?  And if the answer is “none”, why would you include that in your article?


It’s a fine course, but they do have a history of going all out to impress raters.  And sometimes I wonder if anyone besides raters ever plays there.

👆👆👆


"Raters" should be required to "secret shop" at their own expense -- and -- limit their evaluation to only what is experienced between the opening tee-ball and the final putt.

[Jason Thurman]

Who should require them to do so, Chris?


I can't totally decide whether I love or hate the fundamental concept of stopping for a meal every 4-6 holes. Sure it's pretentious and unnecessary. On the other hand, I would totally love doing it.

[Chris Hughes]

Who should require them to do so, Chris?

Themselves.

[Jeff Schley]

Very nice article Jonathan.  I'm not a member there nor a rater. I paid my own way and my opinions carry no weight anywhere in the world of golf. However, my one visit to Shanqin Bay was spectacular. I agree with Jonathan's assessment and it was the single best golf experience I have ever had.



Separate the course from the experience. Happy to, I thought the green complexes were very good. It is built on mountains and a criticism could be there it is too up and down. I would agree, but look at where they did build it and made it possible. Then their superintendent has taken a harsh environment and kept it in immaculate condition. Criticize the location of the course, but I can't think of a way they could have made it better IMHO. They are maintaining it, like a neighbor who keeps their lawn the best of the block, with pride. I'd put it at a solid 8 as a golf course. I'm also trying not to consider the views and scenery which are picturesque themselves.


Now add in the experience, which because of it's unique location and staffing needs, lives together in relative seclusion. Similar to a cruise ship where staff do multiple roles and maybe perform entertainment as well, they really pull it off well with a smile. So they have 2 halfway houses instead of one. So it is a sit down meal. Do we malign Japanese courses for their longstanding tradition of an hour lunch between 9's?  I think we embrace it, as a welcome unique tradition. So I embraced the Shanqin Bay halfway houses similarly, it is impressive.

Caddies do an attentive job and I appreciate that English isn't their first language. They are probably studying and practicing it as it would help themselves progress in their role and other roles. It was a nice touch, when I first met my caddie on the range, where she presented a personalized card to me introducing herself and that she would do her best with English that day. Necessary?  No absolutely not, but a nice touch, yes totally and just adds to the experience. Does it take the golf course rating from 8 to 9?  No, but the experience is so well curated in all areas, I came away with the best golf experience I have had.


I'd like to hear anyone who has actually been there give their opinion, mine is above.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Shanqin Bay is a beautiful golf course, with an array of thoughtful holes and faultless green sites. The bunkers are ok too…


Spent +/- 18 months there with Bill and the boys ( Jim Craig, James Duncan, Dave Zinkand, John Hawker, Landscapes Unlimited, and likely around 100 migrant laborers - mostly from the island of Hainan.) Started with clearing the pineapple fields, to digging some bunkers, to watching it rain, to coring out all the greens, watching it rain some more, and sticking around at the end to get the native jungle in line - with Keeper Chris May ( Packers fan, unfortunately. ) It was a tough place to build - I think I buried my mind in one of those bunkers out there.


We all ate lunch with the staff there as well: it’s not too difficult, there’s no ham and cheese sandwiches involved. 3 ladies form the nearby village would prepare 2 large pots of rice, one large pot of meats (?), and one large pot of vegetables everyday at lunch, and you would get in line with your tin bowl and grab a scoop of each, eat it in the yard, and then rinse your bowl out for the following day’s feast. Probably cost those ladies 20 USD a day to make lunch for 100 hungry bodies.


Regarding the lunch out on the course: yeah, maybe it’s too much - but I think an argument can be made that there’s an appreciative difference between having a basket of fresh dumplings on a porch overlooking your next tee shot vs. having a shot of shitty tequila and a chocolate chip cookie next to a cat path and an oversized trash bin “When in Rome,” they often say.


I have a great story about lunch there one day, in the yard. It’ll be in the book: “ And Her Own Name There: The building of Shanqin Bay Golf Club.” It will be finished sometime in the next 2 - 20 years.

Curious Quinn - were cobras as common as some said?  We didn't see any the few days we were there.  How often did the construction crew run into them?

[Quinn Thompson]

I never saw a cobra out there, Jonathan. Perhaps that’s just an old island tale - like the Irish and their Welshman, Patrick.


That’s a good write up Jeff. Solid take.


Did you play the old 17th hole ? If not, did the new 17th hole distract you from the tide between ?


The lunches, during the round: It’s interesting, and simple - if the Japanese have one lunch in between, the Chinese will have two. That feud is obviously deep and forever written.