https://womenfriendlygolfcourse.com/

[Nicolas Joakimides]

Hello,


I am a french professional golfer and an a golf course designer.
My experience as a coach showed me ,over the years, that golf courses for an average women (hcp 28 ) are  too long.

All the courses I designed are Women friendly and I would like to encourage others courses to do the same if they think, like I do , that courses are to long for women. This is why I had the idea of a “ Women Friendly golf course “label.
I would like to encourage golf courses to make some adjustments if needed.The goal is a better experience for them and to increase the number of female players.
Website : https://womenfriendlygolfcourse.com/( In the US , some courses have already too many tees , but its not the case everywhere else. In europe, we have mainly 4 tees; We can also create a new tee AND eliminate an existing one ! )

I also just started a dedicated Youtube channel : https://www.youtube.com/@WomenFriendlyGolf

I have no idea if some golf clubs will be interested ; We will see !
 I am now seeking partners who could support the project...

Nicolas J
https://www.off-the-beaten-track-golf-design.com/

[Jeff_Brauer]

I agree with you.  I was an early adopter and was quoted in the Wall Street Journal back in 2008 (or 9) about it in an article called "a course too far," so I must have been doing it for a few years before that.  While momentum is growing, there is still a lot of work to do in getting the idea of <4,000 yard courses for those slower swing speed players who hit it no more than 150 yards.


I wrote at least 4 articles on it in my 14 year tenure writing for Golf Course Industry magazine, and those got me calls from a half dozen clubs over the years.  On the other hand, I designed 3,800-4,200 yard tees at many courses that the older male pro refused to use.


I hope your site helps get the word out even further. (i.e., be more influential than I ever was)

[Carl Johnson]

How difficult is it to provide for shorter hitting players via more forward tees, while keeping the challenges roughly the same, proportionately the same, or easier?  Is that an issue you must deal with?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Rip Van Winkle GC ( 1917, Donald Ross) in Palenville, NY is the ideal of a " short course." 


My Blog – My WordPress Blog


Short Course Details:


9 Holes


34.39/////126/332/302/135/401/277/408/324/165/425//////2769y
18 Holes 5341y Red Tee

18 Holes 5894y White Tee

[Matt Schoolfield]

I care deeply about this issue. I'm glad you have decided to create a type of independent mark to try to help clubs who are supportive of women players to identify themselves.

I do have a couple notes, please don't take this as too negative, as I really appreciate someone trying to tackle this issue directly:

1. The website is atrocious. I work in web development, and I understand that it can be difficult (my website isn't exactly the prettiest), but when I visit your site, I am greeted by obviously AI generated images of women. This is especially awkward when they are supermodelish images of fake women. This worries me significantly about the seriousness of the endeavor. It certainly doesn't give the impression that the organization is fighting for normal women. I would hope that this is just the result that any start up faces about getting something published quickly, and getting the details right later.

2. Your categorization of what makes a golf course "women friendly" is seemingly only based around an architectural viewpoint. I understand these things are categorically important to having a women friendly course, but I think there is a massive error of omission here. Many, if not most, of the issues that women face in the golf world are cultural.
Equal access to the course and competition should be paramount to any "women friendly" golf course. This isn't any single country's problem, this is a golf culture problem. I'm not saying that your organization needs to be about these issues, it just rings hollow if you website doesn't even address them:

'It's Absolutely Insane That Many Golf Clubs Still Limit When Women Can Play' - Why Clubs MUST Start Walking The Walk When It Comes To Equality

Tee-time's up: golf clubs urged to offer equal access for women

Why aren’t there more mixed-gender competitions? Simple – men don’t want women winning them

Are clubs discriminating against women by hosting men-only competitions?: Is it fair that access to tee times can be restricted on gender grounds? Steve Carroll looks at what the Equality Act says and the guidance that has been given to clubs

Restrictions at Private Golf Clubs Are Teeing Off Plenty of Women : Female players often find they’re not welcome in a world of male privilege. But states are helping.

Thanks again for taking on this issue. It's one that can be thorny and may ruffle some feathers, but it's something worth fighting for.

[Michael Morandi]

I don’t know. Women’s golf should not be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator. Plenty of women, exercising the same techniques that  we expect of men, can play 6,000 yard courses. Add more forward tees, if you want, but I’m not going to condescend women who equally aspire to improving their game.

[Joe Bausch]

Loved my round at Rip Van Winkle with Cirba (pre-pandemic, me thinks!):

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/RipVanWinkle/index.html

[Chris Hughes]

'It's Absolutely Insane That Many Golf Clubs Still Limit When Women Can Play' - Why Clubs MUST Start Walking The Walk When It Comes To Equality

Matt,

What a massive pile of steaming bovine dung that article constitutes... 🤦‍♂️

At legitimate private clubs it isn't a gender issue...

...it's a member vs. dependent issue. 

The vast majority of clubs allow new joiners (assumes a family) to designate who is the "member", and the rest of the family are by default dependents (with some tee-time restrictions).

[Matt Schoolfield]

'It's Absolutely Insane That Many Golf Clubs Still Limit When Women Can Play' - Why Clubs MUST Start Walking The Walk When It Comes To Equality

Matt,

What a massive pile of steaming bovine dung that article constitutes... ‍♂️

At legitimate private clubs it isn't a gender issue...

...it's a member vs. dependent issue. 

The vast majority of clubs allow new joiners (assumes a family) to designate who is the "member", and the rest of the family are by default dependents (with some tee-time restrictions).

Chris, we've butted heads before, and I will do my best to be polite here. You suggest this is about spouses, and not women. Had you perused this article (I did provide five in total) you would know that it's largely based on this other article:

Why I Gave Up Golf: One Woman's Story About Male-Dominated Club Life: In conversation with a former single-figure female golfer, Alison Root finds out why she left the sport she loved

Here are some relevant quotes:

Today, there are still a great number of clubs that have restricted access for women to play at weekends, and for any businesswoman that pays the same fees as a man, this is totally unfair. Men will argue that women have the tee reserved on a specific day during the week, but that’s no use to modern-day women who are busy working. This is an all-too-common problem that narrows the appeal of golf to a large percentage of the younger female population.   

Reverting back to my conversation with the woman that golf has lost, and as a ‘business lady’ member myself for the most part of my golfing life, I can relate to her comments that led her to hang up her clubs. During one summer, she counted 17 weekend days when the course was closed to women due to men’s competitions, but that’s not all.   

At the time, it was generally just her and a couple of other high handicappers playing at the weekend, and as a single-figure golfer, it was frustrating for her when she had to watch several shots being played before reaching her drive. She asked if she could mix in and play with a men’s group, but she received a categoric ‘NO’. As she was in the minority, without the full support of the older demographic of lady members, who were content with their playing rights and not interested in playing with men, she was fighting a losing battle.

Again, if you want to pretend this is an issue of wives of have husbands who are members, I would say that you really should re-evaluate your priors when it comes to equal access to clubs. Some still don't even allow women to be members.

You say it isn't an issue "at legitimate private clubs" yet, as I like to remind this forum, repeatedly, Pine Valley had to settle with the state of New Jersey, effectively admitting guilt, for illegally discriminating against women literally last year. So if you're going to present a No true Scotsman fallacy to defend a frequently discriminatory club model, then I would suggest you again reevaluate your priors. Unfortunately, there are plenty of clubs that do discriminate against women, even clubs that this group seems to fawn over.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is “single-figure” golfer a common term?

[Wayne_Kozun]

1. The website is atrocious. I work in web development, and I understand that it can be difficult (my website isn't exactly the prettiest), but when I visit your site, I am greeted by obviously AI generated images of women. This is especially awkward when they are supermodelish images of fake women. This worries me significantly about the seriousness of the endeavor. It certainly doesn't give the impression that the organization is fighting for normal women. I would hope tha

To be honest the entire webpage, including the textual content, looks like it was generated by AI.  It seems like the result of a prompt "Generate a website that promotes women friendly golf courses"

[Tim Martin]

Is “single-figure” golfer a common term?

John-I don’t recall having heard the term before. “Low digit” or “single digit “ would be synonymous and are the references I’m familiar with.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Is “single-figure” golfer a common term?

John-I don’t recall having heard the term before. “Low digit” or “single digit “ would be synonymous and are the references I’m familiar with.

Could be an awkward translation from French as the OP said that they are French.

[John Kavanaugh]

Perhaps Matt, or someone of his ilk, could develop more inclusive language for golf.  Terms like “member” and “single or double-figure” feel oft-putting for the growth of the game.

[Nicolas Joakimides]

Off course the images are generated with AI but not the rest .As my english is average, I sometimes use chatgpt for corrections.


It seems that I am the only one to not find the images ugly .I might replace them someday.


There is a dedicated utube channel. If you want to hear my french accent ...
https://youtube.com/@womenfriendlygolf?si=OWtWlEZtKW6ndkf_



A great help would be to subscribe to the channel even if you don't look ar it !

[Ulrich Mayring]

What is the percentage of female participants in this (US and UK dominated) discussion group?
Perhaps this is mainly a US and UK problem? I know that the situation is way different in Scandinavia and some other continental European countries.
For all clubs I've ever been a member of most club competitions were mixed with two exceptions: the club championship once a year, where there will be seperate champions for men and women (and seniors and kids). And the weekly Men's Day and Ladies' Day, which tend to be small events. But all the big weekend club comps are mixed.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Off course the images are generated with AI but not the rest .As my english is average, I sometimes use chatgpt for corrections.

It seems that I am the only one to not find the images ugly .I might replace them someday.

It isn't that the images are ugly - quite the opposite in fact.  But some of them could be seen to be a bit sexist as a few of the women look like models.  Golf has been criticized of viewing women as sex objects in the past - like when Golf Digest magazine had a scantily clad Paulina Gretzky on their cover in 2014 when they rarely had LPGA players on their cover.

[Niall C]

Nicolas
 
I’m with Matt, there should be more fat, ugly women on your webpage. And while you’ve ticked the Asian and black boxes, where’s the gingers ? You need to get a red head in there somewhere. Why not nick the image of Merideth from Disney’s “Brave” but lose the bow and arrows, put in a golf club and stick a few warts on her face ? That would be that sorted.
 
Anyway, having dealt with the serious issues let’s turn to the more trivial golf course design matters. And by golf course design I mean exactly that. I’ll refrain from commenting on club culture etc which I suspect is more of an issue for prospective members, be they men or women.
 
Firstly, I’m not sure about the idea of defined criteria for a women friendly golf course or even the idea of accreditation for such. To my mind that could lead to a paint by numbers approach without any real thought or analysis of individual situations that would bring a more bespoke solution, if indeed a solution was required. I’m also conscious that while you’re focusing on women, you could equally be considering weaker golfers in general be they men, women, boys or girls.
 
As for creating new forward tees in order to make the course a set length, how is that going to work in different conditions such as when the ground is wet and soft and the ball basically stops where it lands ? Also, what about the walk from green to the next tee. Is there any point in shortening the course when all you do is lengthen the walk between holes by a corresponding amount ?
 
What I think is far more important is the nature of the golf. Moving a tee forward might avoid a forced carry tee shot in which case that would definitely help the weaker golfer. However I wouldn’t remove hazards altogether, after all, even weaker golfers  want some interest. What’s important is the nature of the hazard. For instance, flanking bunkers that perhaps edge into the fairway but that have enough room for the player to go round them would do that.
 
Basically, take what you’re advocating for greens ie. being able to roll the ball on, and follow that principle all the way through from tee to green. That’s more or less what MacKenzie was advocating 100 years ago and what many classic courses in this country (Scotland) still have.
 
Niall 

[Nicolas Joakimides]

There is no perfect solution . I am just proposing what I think is " more  playability " for women .
Shorter courses will benefit kids too !

[Andrew Harvie]

What is the percentage of female participants in this (US and UK dominated) discussion group?
Perhaps this is mainly a US and UK problem? I know that the situation is way different in Scandinavia and some other continental European countries.
For all clubs I've ever been a member of most club competitions were mixed with two exceptions: the club championship once a year, where there will be seperate champions for men and women (and seniors and kids). And the weekly Men's Day and Ladies' Day, which tend to be small events. But all the big weekend club comps are mixed.

This is a good question and one I'm going to find out in the New Year. Regardless of what it is, golf architecture/agronomy is an overwhelmingly male-dominated field and I would love to see an influx of passionate women come to the DG, especially those in the industry like Christine Fraser, who I suspect would have a decent amount to say about this topic specifically, and Angela Moser (part of the discussion group), who is a very talented individual with a ton of creativity to unleash as evident by Pinehurst 10!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Rip Van Winkle GC ( 1917, Donald Ross) in Palenville, NY is the ideal of a " short course." 


My Blog – My WordPress Blog


Short Course Details:


9 Holes


34.39/////126/332/302/135/401/277/408/324/165/425//////2769y
18 Holes 5341y Red Tee

18 Holes 5894y White Tee

Steve,

Neither the total distance of the red tees or the 500 yard split between that and whites for 18 holes is considered women friendly these days.  Average women hit it 150 off the tee. Average men (not seniors) hit it 216.  The difference should be about 70% of men's distance, or about 4125 yards.  By some estimates, even that is too long for 150 yard tee shots.

For those women who hit it further, yes, there are no rules about playing the tee that suits you best.

Nickolas has the figure of 15% of players being female in the US.  Maybe this is working, because the traditional figure was about 11%, varying from sub 10% in many southern states and up to 18% in Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa, Indiana, and Illinios.

[Daryl David]

There are plenty of women interested in GCA and this website. I’m sure many are much more interesting than the current posters. They just lurk using their mate’s log in. 🤣

[Sean_A]

There is no perfect solution . I am just proposing what I think is " more  playability " for women .
Shorter courses will benefit kids too !

I am all for shorter courses. But to me a short course is when the back tees are probably 5000ish yards. I have never been keen on trying to stretch courses from 4500 to 7000 yards. The mega tee concept generally doesn’t work well. Bottom line, if you want courses for women and others who enjoy short courses then the focus needs to be on that demographic. Don’t try to please all. Frankly, I am surprised more short courses haven’t been built. I would much rather see these built than par 3 courses.

Ciao