News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Simon Barrington

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2024, 06:49:15 PM »
You’ve got to win jobs to do a great job. So you have to sell.

The difference is those that sell something they believe in and walk away from something they don’t…. Vs those who sell primarily to generate work and therefore revenue.
Spot on, those who see it as a vocation versus just a job.

Those who see it as only a job, don't seem to understand that they are only as good as their worst project, and are scared to refuse any work even though they probably should.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah & Happy Holidays to all the Architects.
It's not an easy job satisfying the critical minds on here (which I hope come from the right place, in wishing to drive the quality of work you produce higher out of passion)

Cheers
« Last Edit: December 25, 2024, 02:03:44 AM by Simon Barrington »

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -16
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2024, 05:43:47 PM »
There is an element of selling in most every profession and educating is part of that process.  Listening is key as well but at the end of the day, an architect is brought in for a reason and unless there is an underlying agenda (which sometimes there is), the architect is there to educate. 

Just like when you visit a doctor, he or she wants/needs to listen to your problem/concern but you are going to see the doctor to get educated about what to do about it.  Think of an architect as a doctor for golf courses.  And just like doctors, the best ones are in high demand for their specialty and those that aren’t don’t stay in business too long. 



« Last Edit: December 26, 2024, 05:45:55 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2024, 01:11:28 PM »
Simon,


I practiced architecture for 45 years and honestly, I can only name a few architects who weren't thrilled to be designing golf courses.  Most of those were older, and I actually retired from active architecting once I realized my enthusiasm had dropped below 120%.  Now, some may not design to your tastes, or may not be as inherently abled as others, but I really don't know any who didn't know they wanted to be a gca from a very early age.


Mark,


Yes, there is selling.......and sometimes that means avoiding at least a few truths until AFTER you have to contract signed......then you educate, lol.  See the other thread on shorter courses, for example.  Selling is basically convincing them that your interests and opinions are totally aligned with theirs.  That often isn't too hard, especially if they interview you based on your past good work.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Simon Barrington

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2024, 06:50:04 PM »
Simon,
I practiced architecture for 45 years and honestly, I can only name a few architects who weren't thrilled to be designing golf courses.  Most of those were older, and I actually retired from active architecting once I realized my enthusiasm had dropped below 120%.  Now, some may not design to your tastes, or may not be as inherently abled as others, but I really don't know any who didn't know they wanted to be a gca from a very early age.
Jeff,
Thanks and I don't doubt many (if not all I hope) have that initial passion and joy.

Despite my obvious passion for heritage Golden Age and earlier courses, I can assure you my tastes are very wide.
I hope am capable of recognising good work by the "able" as opposed to the less so, as I believe many golfers are, regardless of style.

My fear is that I have seen several "Master Plans" or worse "Course Improvement Plans" (an oxymoron if ever there was one), and had discussions with some long-standing participants who have evidently lost that inquisitive passion. Well-tenured architects simply bowing to uniformed (or "Invincibly Ignorant" to quote Tom Simpson) Committees who hold the purse strings, instead of educating them (which seems to be the most cited element on this post).

There was a thread recently on here regarding constraints and how these are seen as potential challenges by the best, to bring out the best creativity in them. But, the same constraints are considered as boring, frustrating and uninspiring by others.

I can only speak from my experience over here (so does not apply to ASGCA Members, who from a distance seem to get the need to research and respect the past thoroughly) but there is a great deal of less-inspiring work going on in the UK just now (a lot of sameness, especially in pastiche bunkering) even upon restoration/remodelling of some significant ODGs' classic design work.

I am hopeful that the example of The Addington (continuing), St Georges Hill (upcoming) and other well-researched renovation/re-imagining work (e.g. M&E do a deal of historical referencing) will inspire more in the profession over here, and the standards and best practice of considered research will be elevated.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2024, 02:37:50 AM by Simon Barrington »

Bruce Katona

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2024, 07:04:19 PM »
Tom D:

I was off the board for a few days celebrating the Christmas with the family.


Happy to assist. 


Selling to keep staff employed (and generating th icome to pay them) is a vicious circle as yoy, Jeff B, Aly, Mark F and others who contribute here know only too well.


Happy Holidays & Happy New Year to all!


BK

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 13
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2024, 12:23:15 PM »

Just like when you visit a doctor, he or she wants/needs to listen to your problem/concern but you are going to see the doctor to get educated about what to do about it.  Think of an architect as a doctor for golf courses.  And just like doctors, the best ones are in high demand for their specialty and those that aren’t don’t stay in business too long.




I used to like this analogy but there are a lot of golf course architects who resent the idea of anyone giving a second opinion to a club and believe it is unprofessional . . . that once they have a consulting contract every other designer should stay away.  Isn't that in the ASGCA bylaws?


That's not how doctors do it, or at least not how they used to.  I suppose it may have changed in recent years, our health care system is so bad.




Also, to Bruce: 


I'm not sure if Ally or Mark have ever had a payroll for their design businesses, although I know Jeff did.  Most architects don't anymore -- even me, although I do still help feed a lot of people.  But back when I did have a payroll, I tried as hard as I could not to let it become a vicious circle.  We only signed up for the jobs where the clients really wanted us, and I was really interested in the project. We'd have made a lot more money [in the short term, anyway] if I'd had different standards.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -16
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2024, 04:31:47 PM »
Tom,
No idea what the ASGCA policy is (I probably should find out) but I think it is simply professional courtesy.  I think you would agree, it is one thing to offer an unsolicited opinion, it is another if you are asked for one. Most doctors won’t go unsolicited to another doctor’s patient and suggest a different prognosis.  However, if the patient requests their opinion that is another matter.  Most architects work that way as well. And many will only do so after talking first with the other architect. Professional courtesy. 


I do recognize some need the work more than others and as you know this can be as cutthroat a business as any other.  I didn’t get in this business for the money so I have never had to take ANY job that I didn’t want or didn’t feel like I could make a positive difference.  I collaborated with lots of other architects, agronomists, civil engineers, and contractors but was not responsible for them putting food on the table (though my projects definitely helped).  But I never had the need to take on work just for the money.  I know many don’t have that luxury and I can empathize why they might say or do things to get a project that I wouldn’t do.  So be it.  I wish them the best.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2024, 08:44:39 PM »
Tom (and Mark)


ASGCA believes that any course would have the right to a second opinion, if they are open about it to both architects.  Maybe even if they aren't, as we have no control over them.  I have seen it happen.  Most design contracts allow either party to disengage at various steps, especially if the other side doesn't live up to its obligations.  Owners usually have a clause that allows them to disengage without a specific cause. owners a bit more leeway.  Geez, I have seen a lot of speculation on what ASGCA allows.  As Mark notes, it's nothing that common sense wouldn't lead you to anyway.


Of course, they may not disengage the original architect if they really do just want a second opinion and aren't really unhappy.  I had a few clubs ask me out "after hours" for about a one hour consultation to see if their less experienced architect was really on the right track and didn't feel like I was stepping on any toes.  I did not make any move to get a new contract in place of said architect, I merely gave them my advice.  I'm not sure what I would have said if they pushed the issue, but the projects were well into construction when I was asked, and it is rarely a good idea to change horses at that point. 


Obviously, it is best if they make their best decision in the interview process.


As to the vicious circle, while I (almost) always had a working wife to cushion the down times, I did rely on commissions to feed a staff of up to 7 in addition to my own family.  The period after my divorce was difficult financially as anyone who has been there knows. 


I guess you could get into a vicious cycle of taking nothing but bad jobs - although my mentors once asked how I would know it was a bad job before the design actually started.  There is something to be said for the challenges of providing a good product on a low budget to courses that couldn't have anything nicer unless someone with a viewpoint that you are doing more for golf on the low budget courses than others are doing by taking a string of high $$$ projects and nothing else.


More practically, most architects and contractors take whatever they can if there is no work, but if they have a prospect of some regular income, begin to get pickier (until those fees run out) Then, I guess, the cycle could keep going and there are those who just don't know how to escape that trap.  The biggest trap I recall is that your early clients had you personally, and later on come to expect that, so sometimes my associates were designing the bigger projects while I was attending to those who thought I was still a struggling one man firm.


PS - I was once roundly chastised in this forum for noting that feeding my family and making a fairly nice living was something I was proud of, as well as employing up to 7 people at professional level wages (if at the lower end of that scale) for 40 years.  My employees never missed a check......although before I had a line of credit, I had to ask them to postpone cashing them from Friday to Monday ONCE in 40 years.  And, I had one employee who let me hear about that for years afterwards.  (I know many Landscape Architecture firms that were famous for not paying their employees when money was tight, although most gca's I have know took pride in paying their employees first.  If you own a design biz, you will almost certainly skip your own paycheck a few times (if not more) to pay your employees or invest in the biz. (adverts, marketing, tech, etc.)  When I had an employee who made the "the workers are doing the work and should get paid higher than the boss/owner) I would know off the top of my head how many checks I skipped for a rebuttal.


I started at age 29, with a motto of "What could possibly go wrong?"  That helps, believe me.  At the end of my first year in business, I remember the local drafting and print store having a year end sale on plan files and large scale printers, which I knew a real office needed.  I ordered both. Their combined cost was like $2000 and my biz checking had about $3000 in it at the time.  Like I said....What could go wrong with that?


And, they say 80% of small businesses fail before 5 years, and most small businesses are never more than 4 months from going broke.  So, if practicing architects here get snarky at those who assume we are "just in it for the money" I hope you understand.  Which brings up another fond memory, but on a project near Denver that Perry Dye got, and which I figured I had no shot, someone on the committee asked if I was just in it for the money.  My response was, "If I was looking to make money, I would sell women's clothing, since it seems to be marked up about twice what men's clothing is." I then ran off a string of other jokes. They remembered me, but they didn't hire me, lol.



« Last Edit: December 28, 2024, 08:59:18 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -16
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2024, 10:16:28 PM »
Nice post Jeff.  Always enjoy your comments. 

Yes most of us are in this for the passion and while it is a profession and we all need money to live, is not the driving force, definitely not for me. 

Another example is the three plus years I spent doing research etc to co-author a golf architecture book.  Definitely didn’t do that for the money either.  My wife used to joke, when we got a royalty check from our publisher John Wiley & Sons, if it was a big one we could both get a coffee AND a donut  ;D  and that was even with the book selling out the first two printings.  We didn’t write that for the money, it was for the good of the game and something we were passionate about.  Same goes for GCA.  This is not only a profession to get to work on someone’s golf course, it is a privilege.  I think most in this business feel that way.

So getting back to the topic of this thread, I stand by the doctor analogy.  The best architects act like the best doctors when it comes to dealing with a classic golf course.  Think about how you would choose a doctor when you go to hire an architect and you will probably choose well. 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2024, 10:18:22 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2024, 07:33:37 AM »
Is there a business market in the gca world for consultants (second opinions)?  I have no idea but does anyone make a living being a gca consultant?

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -16
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2024, 11:10:44 AM »
Jonathan,
There is room for consultants in every industry.  Whether you can make a living at it is another matter.  As a golf course architect, we deal with consultants/experts all the time in the form of members with all the answers  ;D  I recently walked away from a renovation project because it was very clear when I was asked to assist that I would be there simply for cover and to carry out a preconceived plan that a select few members felt was best for their club/course.  They had their minds made up and weren’t open to other thoughts or ideas (no need to be educated when you have the answers). It is their club so I wished them the best of luck and passed. 


Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2024, 04:33:13 PM »
OK Mark but that wasn't really my question.  I know Brad Klein (for random example) has marketed himself as a gca consultant and I believe he charges clients professional fees.  Can he (or others) make a living do so?  I have no sense that he can but I may be entirely wrong.   

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2024, 05:13:45 PM »
I’m not a big fan of clubs seeking second opinions. There is usually an agenda and those seeking the opinion aren’t often the most educated to do so.


The clubs should seek second, third and fourth opinions on the architect they choose at the outset. And then work with their choice. Or realise they’ve made the wrong choice and change.


As the chosen architect, I would then be open to seeking multiple opinions - from architects, “consultants”, club officials, golfers, whoever - as long as they are channelled through me to give the final advice to the club.

Thomas Dai

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2024, 06:06:23 PM »
Question …. if an existing club wants some course work done, who draws up the list of the architects to initially talk to and who ultimately decides on the chosen architect?
It has been intimated more than once herein and elsewhere within golf literature that committees and club leaderships are often pretty clueless when it comes to their knowledge of the game, their historical knowledge of their course, who originally laid it out or subsequently revised it and are full of vested interests.
So who draws up the list and ultimately makes the choice of architect?
The Course Manager? The Secretary/General Manager? Often times these individuals are not that conversant with the history of the course or how some architects have more experience or knowledge of certain ODG’s practices than others.
So likely a mixture of many will be involved. In other words, a committee. Mackenzie and Simpson had harsh words for committees. For what it’s worth I rather like the proposition that a committee once sat down with the aim of building a horse but finished the meeting having designed the camel. :)
There is another ongoing current thread where luck is being debated. I suggest that luck, and luck from both the club and the architects perspective, might have a part to play in any selection process. As these days would social media, the importance of which should not be underestimated.
Atb

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -16
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2024, 06:29:53 PM »
Jonathan,
Brad and I have worked together on multiple projects over the years.  I enjoy his company and his candid/astute opinions/observations about golf courses.  It never hurts to get design perspectives from knowledgeable well studied/well read people.   As has been stated, it is always good to listen.  As to how well someone like Brad does, I don’t know but he has been doing it for quite awhile. 


Ally,
Isn’t it hard to get solid actionable opinions “at the outset” especially on a restoration/renovation project? I think it is.  My advice to any club who gets strong opinions at the outset about what to do or not do to their golf course is to not walk away but to RUN!  It takes time and study to figure out what should be done and what is best for that club/course.  I personally focus on the process and philosophy and provide lots of references.  I also want to get to know the decision makers and learn why they feel they even want someone like me there.  There is a lot to do before you even get to any kind of “opinion” on the prognosis for the golf course.  If they want a second opinion after I have eventually provided mine, that is entirely up to them and I respect that.  It is their course.  That said, there are good and not so good ways to get that second opinion.  This goes back to that professional courtesy. 


Thomas,
It varies across the map how architects are chosen.  Someone could write a book about it!  What I have found it is mostly a result of references.  As to who decides, that could be one person, a select committee, or on rare occasions even a full membership vote.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2024, 06:47:21 PM »
Judging by your response, I think we may be talking about different things, Mark.


Dai - I agree with Mark on his other point. It is primarily references as with many professions… But there is more of an echo chamber in GCA than in most professions.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2024, 06:50:17 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -16
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2024, 07:16:55 PM »
Ally,
Sorry if I misunderstood.  I was talking about a club or course getting a second opinion about how to change/improve/ alter in some way their golf course.  And I am talking about more than just adding a tee or changing one hole’s fairway mowing lines. 

Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2024, 07:38:49 PM »
Mark - again - not really answering my question.  Brad was just an arbitrary example.  Does ANYBODY out there make a living in gca consulting.  I suspect if there are any there are damn few.  You gcas would know best....

Mike Nuzzo

  • Total Karma: 15
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2024, 07:55:10 PM »
Tom
Here are items in the ASGCA code of ethics that Mark said he doesn't know and #9 & #10 where Jeff says the club may seek a second opinion but the writing says the ASGCA architect shall not seek or accept one.
Seeking a second opinion means the course should pay the second architect for their work.
Providing a professional opinion is a lot of work.


8. ASGCA Members shall recognize and respect the work of other golf course architects and shall not knowingly make statements or offer opinions and comments that are false or attempt to injure or disparage their practice, projects or any of their work.
9. Members shall not attempt to obtain or offer to undertake any commission that they know is already under a legitimate contract or agreement with another golf course architect.
10. Members shall not accept any commission until they have ascertained that any former legitimate contract or agreement with another golf course architect has been terminated. This shall be done by soliciting information and evidence from the client or employer and the other golf course architect.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -16
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2024, 07:59:11 PM »
Jonathan,
Well Brad is one so yes there are ;D I work with a lot of irrigation consultants and environmental consultants who primarily focus on golf course work.  There are others out there who are consultants who do GCA research (historians).  Whether they do it full time I don’t know? 

Mike Nuzzo

  • Total Karma: 15
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #45 on: December 29, 2024, 08:10:12 PM »
Thomas Dai
I have seen lists of potential architects that are given to clubs or clients in the following ways (not counting public or published requests):


1. Architect turns down work and provides an alternative(s)
2. Project consultant provides a list of architects - I have been added to and crossed off lists by this type of consultant
3. Society provides a list of architects qualified to work on a certain project
4. Green committee compiles a list of architects
5. The owner, developer, contractor, superintendent, GM, president, etc... have intimate knowledge of the design business and often receive word-of-mouth information about potential architects and or visit courses to see architects work or leverage their past working relationships


The list of architects is usually quite telling of their interests


I have seen a lot of work in process and completed. I would make an excellent recommender of other architects for many specific projects - if I were to disqualify myself.


Peace
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Joe Hancock

  • Total Karma: 5
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #46 on: December 29, 2024, 08:21:04 PM »
Mike Nuzzo,


Also, some architects are chosen because they support, via advertising dollars and/ or willingness to write articles for supportive golf industry associations. The members of said associations are then encouraged to utilize/ promote the use of services of contributing architects.


Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Mike Nuzzo

  • Total Karma: 15
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #47 on: December 29, 2024, 08:23:23 PM »
JC
Some time ago I made a confidential list of golf course architects.


I know of 2 consultants who specifically recommend architects, but they also consult on other aspects of the golf course - membership, agronomy, etc.
There are development consultants who bring architects to projects - the architect selection isn't the revenue generator.
Superintendent selection consultants are more common and a more traditional business.


Everyone seems to know the best architect assuming they don't want to design it themselves.
Pikewood would have been much better (for my taste) had they hired a great architect.
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Mike Nuzzo

  • Total Karma: 15
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #48 on: December 29, 2024, 08:28:30 PM »
Matthew
To your original question - which I assume means after selection - trust and communication.


Any consultant has much to learn about the course from those who manage and enjoy the course every day.
Peace
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Total Karma: -4
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2024, 07:29:21 AM »
Matthew
To your original question - which I assume means after selection - trust and communication.


Any consultant has much to learn about the course from those who manage and enjoy the course every day.
Peace


Nuze - doesn't surprise me at all that there are any number of golf consultants out there, I was just curious if any do this full time as a single profession. 


Mike - I know well that Klein is paid to consult.  In the past I've talked to him about hooking him up to specific courses for potential consulting.  But I doubt Klein can rely on this type of income as his only annual income source.  Not sure anyone can.