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Simon Barrington

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Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2024, 06:49:15 PM »
You’ve got to win jobs to do a great job. So you have to sell.

The difference is those that sell something they believe in and walk away from something they don’t…. Vs those who sell primarily to generate work and therefore revenue.
Spot on, those who see it as a vocation versus just a job.

Those who see it as only a job, don't seem to understand that they are only as good as their worst project, and are scared to refuse any work even though they probably should.

Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah & Happy Holidays to all the Architects.
It's not an easy job satisfying the critical minds on here (which I hope come from the right place, in wishing to drive the quality of work you produce higher out of passion)

Cheers
« Last Edit: December 25, 2024, 02:03:44 AM by Simon Barrington »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2024, 05:43:47 PM »
There is an element of selling in most every profession and educating is part of that process.  Listening is key as well but at the end of the day, an architect is brought in for a reason and unless there is an underlying agenda (which sometimes there is), the architect is there to educate. 

Just like when you visit a doctor, he or she wants/needs to listen to your problem/concern but you are going to see the doctor to get educated about what to do about it.  Think of an architect as a doctor for golf courses.  And just like doctors, the best ones are in high demand for their specialty and those that aren’t don’t stay in business too long. 



« Last Edit: December 26, 2024, 05:45:55 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2024, 01:11:28 PM »
Simon,


I practiced architecture for 45 years and honestly, I can only name a few architects who weren't thrilled to be designing golf courses.  Most of those were older, and I actually retired from active architecting once I realized my enthusiasm had dropped below 120%.  Now, some may not design to your tastes, or may not be as inherently abled as others, but I really don't know any who didn't know they wanted to be a gca from a very early age.


Mark,


Yes, there is selling.......and sometimes that means avoiding at least a few truths until AFTER you have to contract signed......then you educate, lol.  See the other thread on shorter courses, for example.  Selling is basically convincing them that your interests and opinions are totally aligned with theirs.  That often isn't too hard, especially if they interview you based on your past good work.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2024, 06:50:04 PM »
Simon,
I practiced architecture for 45 years and honestly, I can only name a few architects who weren't thrilled to be designing golf courses.  Most of those were older, and I actually retired from active architecting once I realized my enthusiasm had dropped below 120%.  Now, some may not design to your tastes, or may not be as inherently abled as others, but I really don't know any who didn't know they wanted to be a gca from a very early age.
Jeff,
Thanks and I don't doubt many (if not all I hope) have that initial passion and joy.

Despite my obvious passion for heritage Golden Age and earlier courses, I can assure you my tastes are very wide.
I hope am capable of recognising good work by the "able" as opposed to the less so, as I believe many golfers are, regardless of style.

My fear is that I have seen several "Master Plans" or worse "Course Improvement Plans" (an oxymoron if ever there was one), and had discussions with some long-standing participants who have evidently lost that inquisitive passion. Well-tenured architects simply bowing to uniformed (or "Invincibly Ignorant" to quote Tom Simpson) Committees who hold the purse strings, instead of educating them (which seems to be the most cited element on this post).

There was a thread recently on here regarding constraints and how these are seen as potential challenges by the best, to bring out the best creativity in them. But, the same constraints are considered as boring, frustrating and uninspiring by others.

I can only speak from my experience over here (so does not apply to ASGCA Members, who from a distance seem to get the need to research and respect the past thoroughly) but there is a great deal of less-inspiring work going on in the UK just now (a lot of sameness, especially in pastiche bunkering) even upon restoration/remodelling of some significant ODGs' classic design work.

I am hopeful that the example of The Addington (continuing), St Georges Hill (upcoming) and other well-researched renovation/re-imagining work (e.g. M&E do a deal of historical referencing) will inspire more in the profession over here, and the standards and best practice of considered research will be elevated.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:37:50 AM by Simon Barrington »

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2024, 07:04:19 PM »
Tom D:

I was off the board for a few days celebrating the Christmas with the family.


Happy to assist. 


Selling to keep staff employed (and generating th icome to pay them) is a vicious circle as yoy, Jeff B, Aly, Mark F and others who contribute here know only too well.


Happy Holidays & Happy New Year to all!


BK

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 12:23:15 PM »

Just like when you visit a doctor, he or she wants/needs to listen to your problem/concern but you are going to see the doctor to get educated about what to do about it.  Think of an architect as a doctor for golf courses.  And just like doctors, the best ones are in high demand for their specialty and those that aren’t don’t stay in business too long.




I used to like this analogy but there are a lot of golf course architects who resent the idea of anyone giving a second opinion to a club and believe it is unprofessional . . . that once they have a consulting contract every other designer should stay away.  Isn't that in the ASGCA bylaws?


That's not how doctors do it, or at least not how they used to.  I suppose it may have changed in recent years, our health care system is so bad.




Also, to Bruce: 


I'm not sure if Ally or Mark have ever had a payroll for their design businesses, although I know Jeff did.  Most architects don't anymore -- even me, although I do still help feed a lot of people.  But back when I did have a payroll, I tried as hard as I could not to let it become a vicious circle.  We only signed up for the jobs where the clients really wanted us, and I was really interested in the project. We'd have made a lot more money [in the short term, anyway] if I'd had different standards.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 04:31:47 PM »
Tom,
No idea what the ASGCA policy is (I probably should find out) but I think it is simply professional courtesy.  I think you would agree, it is one thing to offer an unsolicited opinion, it is another if you are asked for one. Most doctors won’t go unsolicited to another doctor’s patient and suggest a different prognosis.  However, if the patient requests their opinion that is another matter.  Most architects work that way as well. And many will only do so after talking first with the other architect. Professional courtesy. 


I do recognize some need the work more than others and as you know this can be as cutthroat a business as any other.  I didn’t get in this business for the money so I have never had to take ANY job that I didn’t want or didn’t feel like I could make a positive difference.  I collaborated with lots of other architects, agronomists, civil engineers, and contractors but was not responsible for them putting food on the table (though my projects definitely helped).  But I never had the need to take on work just for the money.  I know many don’t have that luxury and I can empathize why they might say or do things to get a project that I wouldn’t do.  So be it.  I wish them the best.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #32 on: Yesterday at 08:44:39 PM »
Tom (and Mark)


ASGCA believes that any course would have the right to a second opinion, if they are open about it to both architects.  Maybe even if they aren't, as we have no control over them.  I have seen it happen.  Most design contracts allow either party to disengage at various steps, especially if the other side doesn't live up to its obligations.  Owners usually have a clause that allows them to disengage without a specific cause. owners a bit more leeway.  Geez, I have seen a lot of speculation on what ASGCA allows.  As Mark notes, it's nothing that common sense wouldn't lead you to anyway.


Of course, they may not disengage the original architect if they really do just want a second opinion and aren't really unhappy.  I had a few clubs ask me out "after hours" for about a one hour consultation to see if their less experienced architect was really on the right track and didn't feel like I was stepping on any toes.  I did not make any move to get a new contract in place of said architect, I merely gave them my advice.  I'm not sure what I would have said if they pushed the issue, but the projects were well into construction when I was asked, and it is rarely a good idea to change horses at that point. 


Obviously, it is best if they make their best decision in the interview process.


As to the vicious circle, while I (almost) always had a working wife to cushion the down times, I did rely on commissions to feed a staff of up to 7 in addition to my own family.  The period after my divorce was difficult financially as anyone who has been there knows. 


I guess you could get into a vicious cycle of taking nothing but bad jobs - although my mentors once asked how I would know it was a bad job before the design actually started.  There is something to be said for the challenges of providing a good product on a low budget to courses that couldn't have anything nicer unless someone with a viewpoint that you are doing more for golf on the low budget courses than others are doing by taking a string of high $$$ projects and nothing else.


More practically, most architects and contractors take whatever they can if there is no work, but if they have a prospect of some regular income, begin to get pickier (until those fees run out) Then, I guess, the cycle could keep going and there are those who just don't know how to escape that trap.  The biggest trap I recall is that your early clients had you personally, and later on come to expect that, so sometimes my associates were designing the bigger projects while I was attending to those who thought I was still a struggling one man firm.


PS - I was once roundly chastised in this forum for noting that feeding my family and making a fairly nice living was something I was proud of, as well as employing up to 7 people at professional level wages (if at the lower end of that scale) for 40 years.  My employees never missed a check......although before I had a line of credit, I had to ask them to postpone cashing them from Friday to Monday ONCE in 40 years.  And, I had one employee who let me hear about that for years afterwards.  (I know many Landscape Architecture firms that were famous for not paying their employees when money was tight, although most gca's I have know took pride in paying their employees first.  If you own a design biz, you will almost certainly skip your own paycheck a few times (if not more) to pay your employees or invest in the biz. (adverts, marketing, tech, etc.)  When I had an employee who made the "the workers are doing the work and should get paid higher than the boss/owner) I would know off the top of my head how many checks I skipped for a rebuttal.


I started at age 29, with a motto of "What could possibly go wrong?"  That helps, believe me.  At the end of my first year in business, I remember the local drafting and print store having a year end sale on plan files and large scale printers, which I knew a real office needed.  I ordered both. Their combined cost was like $2000 and my biz checking had about $3000 in it at the time.  Like I said....What could go wrong with that?


And, they say 80% of small businesses fail before 5 years, and most small businesses are never more than 4 months from going broke.  So, if practicing architects here get snarky at those who assume we are "just in it for the money" I hope you understand.  Which brings up another fond memory, but on a project near Denver that Perry Dye got, and which I figured I had no shot, someone on the committee asked if I was just in it for the money.  My response was, "If I was looking to make money, I would sell women's clothing, since it seems to be marked up about twice what men's clothing is." I then ran off a string of other jokes. They remembered me, but they didn't hire me, lol.



« Last Edit: Yesterday at 08:59:18 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 10:16:28 PM »
Nice post Jeff.  Always enjoy your comments. 

Yes most of us are in this for the passion and while it is a profession and we all need money to live, is not the driving force, definitely not for me. 

Another example is the three plus years I spent doing research etc to co-author a golf architecture book.  Definitely didn’t do that for the money either.  My wife used to joke, when we got a royalty check from our publisher John Wiley & Sons, if it was a big one we could both get a coffee AND a donut  ;D  and that was even with the book selling out the first two printings.  We didn’t write that for the money, it was for the good of the game and something we were passionate about.  Same goes for GCA.  This is not only a profession to get to work on someone’s golf course, it is a privilege.  I think most in this business feel that way.

So getting back to the topic of this thread, I stand by the doctor analogy.  The best architects act like the best doctors when it comes to dealing with a classic golf course.  Think about how you would choose a doctor when you go to hire an architect and you will probably choose well. 
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:18:22 PM by Mark_Fine »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #34 on: Today at 07:33:37 AM »
Is there a business market in the gca world for consultants (second opinions)?  I have no idea but does anyone make a living being a gca consultant?

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Most important element of a consulting architect's role
« Reply #35 on: Today at 11:10:44 AM »
Jonathan,
There is room for consultants in every industry.  Whether you can make a living at it is another matter.  As a golf course architect, we deal with consultants/experts all the time in the form of members with all the answers  ;D  I recently walked away from a renovation project because it was very clear when I was asked to assist that I would be there simply for cover and to carry out a preconceived plan that a select few members felt was best for their club/course.  They had their minds made up and weren’t open to other thoughts or ideas (no need to be educated when you have the answers). It is their club so I wished them the best of luck and passed.