Weekday pin positions

[Craig Sweet]

Imagine a club tournament and the pro shop is suddenly determining where the holes will be and the person that's been determining hole locations all summer is reduced to looking for white dots on the green....

[Rob Marshall]

Imagine a club tournament and the pro shop is suddenly determining where the holes will be and the person that's been determining hole locations all summer is reduced to looking for white dots on the green....

Pro shop should be involved to some degree. They are the ones who have to field all the complaints about bad pin's.

[Joe Hancock]

Imagine a club tournament and the pro shop is suddenly determining where the holes will be and the person that's been determining hole locations all summer is reduced to looking for white dots on the green....

Pro shop should be involved to some degree. They are the ones who have to field all the complaints about bad pin's.

Who should the definitive authority be that decides what is a “bad pin”? The pro shop, unfortunately, hears a lot of complaints from golfers that shouldn’t be complaints.

[Carl Johnson]

Normally I don't think the pro shop should be involved with pin positions.  Isn't that the greenkeeper's job under the direction of the green committee?  Naturally the pro shop will get questions because they're more accessible than those responsible, but no one should give them any heat for the pin positions.  Mostly the pro shop is not going to know why the pins are where they are.  Right? 

[Jim_Coleman]

   I’m pretty sure at my course the pro shop only gets involved in choosing pins for important events -  m/g, m/m, c/c etc. However, if there is a bad pin on a given day, the pro shop will (and should) get the call. Someone from the shop will investigate, and if he agrees, will call the super. It almost never happens.

[Carl Johnson]

   I’m pretty sure at my course the pro shop only gets involved in choosing pins for important events -  m/g, m/m, c/c etc. However, if there is a bad pin on a given day, the pro shop will (and should) get the call. Someone from the shop will investigate, and if he agrees, will call the super. It almost never happens.

Several weeks ago we had a pin on the edge of a ridge very near the back corner of a green.  You either made the putt or your ball was "gone" and you gave up.  My group passed through at about 11:00 am after several other groups.  Just after we finished someone from the super's dept. drove up and moved the pin about three feet to a flatter area.  My assumption is that a group ahead of us had called the pro shop, who in turn called the super, just as you describe.  The system worked as it should.

[Kalen Braley]

Given Barney hasn't weighed in on this one yet, i'll posit that perhaps they know what their doing and just don't like the job and/or the members! 

[Rob Marshall]

Imagine a club tournament and the pro shop is suddenly determining where the holes will be and the person that's been determining hole locations all summer is reduced to looking for white dots on the green....

Pro shop should be involved to some degree. They are the ones who have to field all the complaints about bad pin's.

Who should the definitive authority be that decides what is a “bad pin”? The pro shop, unfortunately, hears a lot of complaints from golfers that shouldn’t be complaints.

If a ball putted gets to the hole then stops moving forward and rolls back to you, it's a bad pin. Happens are my club on the same hole a couple of times a year. Goes back to the goofy green speeds everyone demands that limit pin positions.

[Grant Saunders]

I think this subject is being overthought by a large margin


Moving hole locations is primarily about spreading wear and turf conditions will dictate where a hole can be cut a lot of the time

[Chris Hughes]

Imagine a club tournament and the pro shop is suddenly determining where the holes will be and the person that's been determining hole locations all summer is reduced to looking for white dots on the green....

Sounds entirely sub-optimal to me...

[Jim Lipstate]

It is apparent that deciding on daily pin positions is rather a complicated matter that should require some thought. My course uses a computerized program that sometimes results in unwanted consequences. On a holiday with a full tee sheet the first three holes had pins placed in the most difficult positions possible. It caused a huge backup on the course as players were routinely three putting or putting off of greens dramatically slowing pace of play. A little thought to pin placements on a very crowded day might have greatly improved the experience of those trying to get around.


Thinking about the thought processes involved I can come up with several considerations:


Hole difficulty
Green speeds and slopes
Length of hole
Green wear due to pin placement
Routine play versus tournament play
Pace of play considerations
Weather considerations such as wind and rain
Varying pin postions front, middle and back
Avoiding having the same pin positions on the same days of the week
Proximity to bunkers and hazards
“Challenging” versus “unfair” pins


I’m sure there are a few others and I am open to additional thoughts. I doubt most computer setups or non-golfing green superintendents give full considerations to all of these variables. It can make big difference in how a course might play in any given day.

[Craig Sweet]

Man, a computerized pin location generator...what could possibly go wrong?  Give me a golf savvy human, and a simple front, middle, back system and I can guarantee you'll go weeks before you see the pin in the same location again.


I bet the computerized system leaves large portions of the green pretty much always devoid of a hole location. 

[JohnVDB]

One of the few things that ever bothered me at Bandon Dunes was their front/middle/back hole rotation. Both BD and PD have all the par 5s as multiples of 3.  This means that every day all of them will be back or middle or front for that course.


They also used to place the tees based off the hole locations.  So if the hole was back, the tee was on the front etc.  it took away a lot of the possible variety and interest to me.


My one complaint at Royal Dornoch is that they don’t move the holes frequently enough.  With the wonderful greens we have it bothers me when the hole might be in the same place for three days in a row. I can imagine being frustrated by this if I was a guest playing three rounds to the same hole location. Especially for a green as interesting as the 4th or the 5th.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I bet the computerized system leaves large portions of the green pretty much always devoid of a hole location. 

Yes… the parts where you shouldn't put a hole, like the hole location that caused the cancellation of the third round of the NCAA DIII  National Championship at Mission Inn two years ago. 😜

[Carl Johnson]

The two clubs I have worked at had front, middle, back rotation and left the pin location to the hole cutter.

I like the sounds of this, a lot -- eyes, feet, brains -- things like that factoring in.

A while back a place I've played at a lot went to some sort of "AI" based program/algorithm/system for setting pins...

...let's just say the product purchased is woefully short on the "I" part of the equation (hope it didn't cost much).

Word is the goal was to spread out the foot traffic but the practical result was a consistent series of absurd pins that were unplayable, or borderline thereof.
[/quote


My guess is that the super uses the software to select pin-able locations on the green and then of those he chooses to use the ones nearest the perimeter of the greens.  If what I believe is true, then the blame falls not on the software, but on the human choosing the location for the day.  Beyond that, the software does not punch the hole itself.  The hole puncher can make mistakes translating the software suggestion to the actual green if he/she is not careful.  The hole puncher can also look at the software's suggestion and say "this is nuts."  It would be foolish to follow the software blindly.

[Thomas Dai]

Computer software to determine hole locations on the putting surface!
Is this more satire?
No wonder folks moan that golf’s expensive.
A simple stick, ball, hole game has gone bonkers.
Atb

[Sean_A]

Computer software to determine hole locations on the putting surface!
Is this more satire?
No wonder folks moan that golf’s expensive.
A simple stick, ball, hole game has gone bonkers.
Atb

Yer not wrong. The more technology introduced to golf the less interaction with the course.

Merry Christmas

[Carl Johnson]

Computer software to determine hole locations on the putting surface!
Is this more satire?
No wonder folks moan that golf’s expensive.
A simple stick, ball, hole game has gone bonkers.
Atb

Yes, it is satire.  Here is a satirical article from the web.  https://gcmonline.com/course/environment/news/golf-course-pin-placement

[Craig Sweet]

No offense Carl but NO computer is going to do a better job determining pin location than experienced eyes on the green.  The minute the article mentioned "root zone moisture" and "salinity" I threw up a little in my mouth.


Here is how locating a suitable pin location happens 99% of the time:  A person walks out onto the green, with a rotation of some sort (Front to back...A-F),  looks at an area of the green for a pin location that doesn't have a lot of old holes healing, or a bazillion pitch marks, locates a spot that is "fair",  and cuts the hole.  Human eyes see the localized dry spot forming, human eyes see the areas that will be hand watered later in the day, human eyes know a tournament is later in the week and will save a "special" pin location. 

[Carl Johnson]

No offense Carl but NO computer is going to do a better job determining pin location than experienced eyes on the green.  The minute the article mentioned "root zone moisture" and "salinity" I threw up a little in my mouth.


Here is how locating a suitable pin location happens 99% of the time:  A person walks out onto the green, with a rotation of some sort (Front to back...A-F),  looks at an area of the green for a pin location that doesn't have a lot of old holes healing, or a bazillion pitch marks, locates a spot that is "fair",  and cuts the hole.  Human eyes see the localized dry spot forming, human eyes see the areas that will be hand watered later in the day, human eyes know a tournament is later in the week and will save a "special" pin location.

No offense at all.  I'm 100% in agreement with you.  However, this is what's going on, and at my club too.  The world of modern day golf.  If I wanted to bother our super, as if he doesn't have anything else to do, I'd have him take me out with him and show me how he uses his software.  He would do that, for sure.  Then I could report back on my experience.

[Chris Hughes]

No offense Carl but NO computer is going to do a better job determining pin location than experienced eyes on the green.  The minute the article mentioned "root zone moisture" and "salinity" I threw up a little in my mouth.

🫵🙌

Here is how locating a suitable pin location happens 99% of the time:  A person walks out onto the green, with a rotation of some sort (Front to back...A-F),  looks at an area of the green for a pin location that doesn't have a lot of old holes healing, or a bazillion pitch marks, locates a spot that is "fair",  and cuts the hole.  Human eyes see the localized dry spot forming, human eyes see the areas that will be hand watered later in the day, human eyes know a tournament is later in the week and will save a "special" pin location.

👆👆👆


It really is that simple!!


Pin placements, tee sheets, etc...less than no interest in seeing either handled by anything other than someone I can shake hands with.

[Craig Sweet]

Carl, would your club be better off with two additional employees on bunker day, or owning this software?  Was it his idea to purchase the software or did a member see this in a magazine or at a trade show and fall in love?

[Carl Johnson]

Carl, would your club be better off with two additional employees on bunker day, or owning this software?  Was it his idea to purchase the software or did a member see this in a magazine or at a trade show and fall in love?

1.  Would your club be better off with two additional employees on bunker day, or owning this software?
Many days are bunker days, and more workers would be better.  Seriously, I have no idea how much the software costs compared to the cost of hiring two additional employees, but I hope the software would cost much less.

2.  Was it his [super's] idea to purchase the software or did a member see this in a magazine or at a trade show and fall in love?
Only a guess, but I believe it was probably the super's idea.  However, a green committee member falling in love is not out of the realm of possibility.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

No offense Carl but NO computer is going to do a better job determining pin location than experienced eyes on the green.

Well that's just wrong (or at least not always correct).

[Rob Marshall]

Does the computer program know if a green is going to dry out during the day and make a marginal location turn bad?


JohnVDB may know, but don’t tournament officials drop a ball and make sure the ball rolls no more than X number of feet?