Weekday pin positions

[Jeff_Brauer]

Do we still prefer blood letting to micro surgery?

Not relevant.

While a bit of an exaggeration, there is little doubt that most endeavors including golf are becoming more data driven and scientific over some of that black magic voodoo some seem to prefer, and we are generally better off for it.  In this case, while it is early, given how much complaints a single bad pin position generates almost everywhere, I believe we will specifically be better off for it.  Like high tech clubs and balls, bunker liners and almost everything else, this will take ten years to be adopted by all golf courses.  But, it is coming.

[Tim Martin]

There has never been more information available regarding temps, precipitation(past and current), wind, humidity and all things weather related. I don’t know what the issue is with also factoring in a computer generated model of pre selected pin positions to the mix of tools already available to the super. At the end of the day the super either takes the heat for bad placements or the accolades for picking the hole locations that make the design shine.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,


I recently learned that it can be a legal issue to use older temp and precipitation guides for design.  Since most believe climate change has changed weather patterns, using a precipitation guide that Toro put out not long after WWII could be seen as Malpractice in irrigation design, and using older rainfall charts to design drainage would be similar.  I think a lawyer could have a field day if a gca pulled out an old, worn, paper copy of some design data.


Many agreements now have "resilient design" clauses and if your course floods or is brown part of the year, someone may think you are not doing your job.  I would hate to have back to back 100 year storms when I designed the drainage for a 1, 2, or maybe 5 year storm at most without contractual protection of some kind.  (BTW, I am currently combing multiple sources to provide such a clause for ASGCA members to use in any updated contract)


And I always joked that a golfer might sue an architect or super for losing a bet someday.  It might be a good defense to say you used the best tech available in setting that cup that cost him thousands of dollars.  I know of one CA club that sued its renovation architect over one green that they deemed didn't have enough cup setting areas.  (I don't know the outcome)

[Carl Johnson]

Here's the response to the original post from ChatGPT 4o mini:

Golf courses typically do not change their pin positions during the week versus the weekend, but there can be some variation in the way pin placements are handled depending on the course's policies and the type of event or play happening. Here's a general breakdown:

• Weekdays vs Weekends: Many courses may not differentiate between weekdays and weekends when it comes to pin placements. The pin positions could remain the same throughout the week, especially if the course is busy with regular play or if there are no special events or tournaments.
• Pin Positions: Most golf courses use multiple pre-determined positions for each hole. These positions are typically rotated to avoid wear and tear on a specific area of the green. This can involve placing the pin in different sections of the green, such as the front, middle, or back. Some courses will rotate pin placements daily, while others may do it on a weekly basis.
• Weekend Events: During weekends, if there are more golfers or special events (like tournaments or club championships), pin positions might be set in tougher or more challenging spots to make the round more difficult, or for competitive play. But for everyday weekend play, there isn't necessarily a distinct change compared to weekdays.
• Course Management: Some courses, particularly high-end or private clubs, might adjust pin positions more carefully depending on traffic, weather conditions, or member requests, but again, these changes would typically be done daily rather than based on whether it’s a weekday or weekend.

In short, courses don’t generally use different pin positions on weekdays vs weekends. However, weekend play may see slightly more challenging placements if there's a higher volume of players or tournaments.

[Matt MacIver]

Carl - thanks for doing.  To any non-golfer that reads that it seems logical, comprehensive and complete - that’s troubling for when I go to read something I don’t know that much about and want to learn — just how accurate it actually really will be; it “reads” like 90%+ but might actually only be ~51%+.  Is that the new bar?  I totally agree that any AI- developed product be clearly labeled as such. 

[archie_struthers]

 


On the road for a bit so missed Peter S query. Cart paths in the wrong spot definitely impact playing conditions. So bad positioning of same might make a wise superintendent steer away from some pin locations.


For instance imagine a hole with a long bunker along the left of the green , the path drops all the players off at the front of the green. The next hole runs back to the tee they just played. So almost 80% or more of foot traffic enters the green in the same spot. Not
good and you are going to get some real bad wear on the turf in that spot.


Perhaps the Super might try to put a lot of back pins in here , but it'a a losing battle, almost all traffic enters in the front left.  Design flaw for sure , though many might hold the superintendent responsible, without thinking it thru. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Carl,

I am not aware of any courses that leave the pins in place all week and just rotate them on weekends, so that article is another of AI not being able to substitute for humans, at least not quite yet.  The second PP is closer, although I don't know of any but a low play country course that wouldn't rotate them at least once during the week.  And, Friday is now a weekend day for most courses, so that would leave changes to the pin on Fri, Sat, Sun, and then Monday and Wed or Tuesday and Thur if changed every other day during the week.  I still think it is rare these days on any course this group would go play.

In general, most courses figure that weekend play and weekday play both end up as about 50% of their rounds.

[Craig Sweet]

During periods of low play a fresh cup might be cut every other day. In the north where frost or early morning frozen turf might occur in spring and fall, several holes might be cut on a green and the pin location rotated from location to location.

[Carl Johnson]

Carl,

I am not aware of any courses that leave the pins in place all week and just rotate them on weekends, so that article is another of AI not being able to substitute for humans, at least not quite yet.  The second PP is closer, although I don't know of any but a low play country course that wouldn't rotate them at least once during the week.  And, Friday is now a weekend day for most courses, so that would leave changes to the pin on Fri, Sat, Sun, and then Monday and Wed or Tuesday and Thur if changed every other day during the week.  I still think it is rare these days on any course this group would go play.

In general, most courses figure that weekend play and weekday play both end up as about 50% of their rounds.

The original question was misinterpreted by ChatGPT and others.  I guess I did not make it clear enough.  The idea suggested to me was that on weekdays (Mon. - Thurs.) the pins would always be on the green perimeter (not necessarily difficult places, except by virtue of being perimeter), although they would be changed daily to different perimeter positions.  Same Fri. - Sun., changed daily, with the pin positions some perimeter difficult, some easy middle, and some moderate interior.

I threw in the ChatGPT response (Reply 78) as a lark, of course.

[Matt Wharton]

Happy New Year Fellas!


I've been reading this thread for a few days now and thought I would chime in and share with you my personal thoughts when changing pin positions. I have been a superintendent at 3 golf courses over the past 23 years and have worked at a total of 5 golf courses over the past 35 years, all of which I have changed pin positions countless times.


Firstly, I am moving the pin to spread out the foot traffic and wear pattern around the prior hole location. Where I move the next pin to is a factor of several things such as the expected weather, expected volume of play, is it a tournament or casual golf, and more.


If rain is expected I may seek pin positions on the higher points and avoid lower lying areas that may collect water. If we are expecting a higher volume of play I may seek "easier" pins by remaining closer to the middle and avoiding pins near the edges. If it's a tournament (assume the pins were preselected and marked in advance) we are probably selecting a variety of pins that will provide challenge by tucking some closer to the edges along with using the front and back too.


When the weather is hot and humid and the greens a little slower I may place pins in areas normally considered to be too dicey under normal green speeds. If the volume of play is expected to be light we may utilize more difficult pins if necessary to properly spread out the wear patterns... because a lower volume will not slow down play too much compared to a busier day.


If I am trying to protect a green for any number of reasons I will place the pin about 4 or 5 paces from the front edge because the average golfer is almost always short with their approach shots meaning most balls will land short and then the foot traffic is mostly confined to the front of the green protecting 2/3 to 3/4 of the putting surface behind the hole. If the front needed protecting then a temporary green would be appropriate.


If we are in a slow time of the season and play was limited or non existent the previous day we may elect to not change the pins at all. Sometimes we may go multiple days depending on the weather before we change pin positions. Winter time can also require some creativity as it relates to areas prone to frost. Pins may be moved to the sunny side of greens or away from certain areas prone to linger in the shade.


When I was in graduate school the golf course where I regularly played cut two holes in each green during the winter and as groups played through you moved the flag from one hole to the other to keep the foot traffic spread out. I have played other courses in the winter with as many as three holes per green for this same purpose.


Again, although moving the pin creates variety and alters strategy in playing a hole from one day to the next, the primary reason for moving the pin is to preserve and protect the putting surface by spreading out the wear from concentrated foot traffic. And of course, we are always looking for that devilish spot just to make you miss. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Happy New Year Fellas!


I've been reading this thread for a few days now and thought I would chime in and share with you my personal thoughts when changing pin positions. I have been a superintendent at 3 golf courses over the past 23 years and have worked at a total of 5 golf courses over the past 35 years, all of which I have changed pin positions countless times.


Firstly, I am moving the pin to spread out the foot traffic and wear pattern around the prior hole location. Where I move the next pin to is a factor of several things such as the expected weather, expected volume of play, is it a tournament or casual golf, and more.


If rain is expected I may seek pin positions on the higher points and avoid lower lying areas that may collect water. If we are expecting a higher volume of play I may seek "easier" pins by remaining closer to the middle and avoiding pins near the edges. If it's a tournament (assume the pins were preselected and marked in advance) we are probably selecting a variety of pins that will provide challenge by tucking some closer to the edges along with using the front and back too.


When the weather is hot and humid and the greens a little slower I may place pins in areas normally considered to be too dicey under normal green speeds. If the volume of play is expected to be light we may utilize more difficult pins if necessary to properly spread out the wear patterns... because a lower volume will not slow down play too much compared to a busier day.


If I am trying to protect a green for any number of reasons I will place the pin about 4 or 5 paces from the front edge because the average golfer is almost always short with their approach shots meaning most balls will land short and then the foot traffic is mostly confined to the front of the green protecting 2/3 to 3/4 of the putting surface behind the hole. If the front needed protecting then a temporary green would be appropriate.


If we are in a slow time of the season and play was limited or non existent the previous day we may elect to not change the pins at all. Sometimes we may go multiple days depending on the weather before we change pin positions. Winter time can also require some creativity as it relates to areas prone to frost. Pins may be moved to the sunny side of greens or away from certain areas prone to linger in the shade.


When I was in graduate school the golf course where I regularly played cut two holes in each green during the winter and as groups played through you moved the flag from one hole to the other to keep the foot traffic spread out. I have played other courses in the winter with as many as three holes per green for this same purpose.


Again, although moving the pin creates variety and alters strategy in playing a hole from one day to the next, the primary reason for moving the pin is to preserve and protect the putting surface by spreading out the wear from concentrated foot traffic. And of course, we are always looking for that devilish spot just to make you miss. 

This is great; thank you!

[Peter Sayegh]

When I was in graduate school the golf course where I regularly played cut two holes in each green during the winter and as groups played through you moved the flag from one hole to the other to keep the foot traffic spread out. I have played other courses in the winter with as many as three holes per green for this same purpose.

Matt, I've only experienced this situation twice. At the time, I didn't know the reason for it.
Have you implemented this idea yourself?
Why or why not?
Thanks.