James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast

[ward peyronnin]

First let me thank oyu for the link Thomas as I have always found Braid's courses to be marvels without fail.
And thanks all for a very enjoyable, scholarly, and civil discussion of a very subjective topic.
I tread among Giants here but reflecting on the comment regarding Braid's limitations of direct supervision led me to recall Perranporth, one of the wildest rides I have ever undertaken and a cracking time. Making golf work on a site like this surely demands intimate involvement as leaving this up to construction crews or a  proxy seems very unlikely? Isn't Painswick similarly by Braid as well?

[Adam Lawrence]

I think fundamentally I am in Sean's corner here. There is no doubt that Braid was a fine architect, and has been much underrated for most of the time since his death, but it is fundamentally inconceivable to mention him in the same breath as Colt, imo.

If Gleneagles (which I love and which is unarguably world-class) is Braid's best work, does it match up to Portrush, Muirfield, St George's Hill or Sunny New? Perhaps individually it does; but to have done work of that standard over and over again elevates Colt way beyond any of his contemporaries in my opinion.

FWIW my current total of Colt & Co related projects numbers 454.


Edited to add: I think it is unarguable that snobbery is the fundamental reason why Braid is underrated. The British golf media of the early twentieth century, dominated by Darwin, was a pretty upper-middle class at the least environment. Braid did well to get as much recognition as he did from that world...

[Adam Lawrence]

Quick thought about the Eden. Does anyone recall if it was a competition or did Colt just walk into the job as an R&A member?
Cheers,
F.

FBD,

Good question, not sure I've ever heard. I know that Neil Crafter spent a bit of time exploring whether McKenzie was due a joint credit in the design (the answer is no) but not sure whether he bottomed out how the job was commissioned.

Niall

I want to say the Dr Mac at Eden theory was debunked by Adam, but I don’t recall.

Ciao

MacKenzie undoubtedly made some inspection visits to St Andrews during the span of the Eden Course project, but there is zero evidence of his having any input into the actual design of the course. The 'MacKenzie at Eden' thesis is circumstantial, based on an opinion that the Eden greens were too wild to have been Colt seul, but there is hard evidence, from Swinley and St George's Hill among others, that the immediately pre-WW1 period represented Colt at his most adventurous in green designs.

[Simon Barrington]

"MacKenzie undoubtedly made some inspection visits to St Andrews during the span of the Eden Course project, but there is zero evidence of his having any input into the actual design of the course. The 'MacKenzie at Eden' thesis is circumstantial, based on an opinion that the Eden greens were too wild to have been Colt seul, but there is hard evidence, from Swinley and St George's Hill among others, that the immediately pre-WW1 period represented Colt at his most adventurous in green designs."

Some of the images I have seen of the early Camberley Heath greens would support that

[Simon Barrington]

I think fundamentally I am in Sean's corner here. There is no doubt that Braid was a fine architect, and has been much underrated for most of the time since his death, but it is fundamentally inconceivable to mention him in the same breath as Colt, imo.
If Gleneagles (which I love and which is unarguably world-class) is Braid's best work, does it match up to Portrush, Muirfield, St George's Hill or Sunny New? Perhaps individually it does; but to have done work of that standard over and over again elevates Colt way beyond any of his contemporaries in my opinion.
FWIW my current total of Colt & Co related projects numbers 454.
Edited to add: I think it is unarguable that snobbery is the fundamental reason why Braid is underrated. The British golf media of the early twentieth century, dominated by Darwin, was a pretty upper-middle class at the least environment. Braid did well to get as much recognition as he did from that world...

Thanks Adam

Good perspective, and there is no fight for a corner to be taken, my hope is only the reassessment of Braid's talent upwards, rather than anyone elses (especially Colt's) downwards. It is not a zero-sum game.

We will never know if Braid had dedicated himself solely to design what would he have produced consistently, if Gleneagles was his ceiling it would be high. The variety and skill he showed in the limited available time indicates he had much more to offer.

Can you imagine what a continuation of their one-off situational partnership may have produced.
Braid had a great deal to offer in routings and how to challenge the very best players.
The Braid/Colt and Colt/Braid courses that are out there indicate it might have been quite the success?
But that, of course, is conjecture.

As previously, Colt was IMHO the consumate and generous collaborator/mentor.

Thanks & Cheers

[Thomas Dai]

Here’s part II of the podcast - https://www.cookiejargolf.com/ - CJ Pod episode 282


And here’s the location of Southsea pitch-n-putt as mentioned - https://www.instantstreetview.com/@50.782123,-1.061916,17z,2t

Atb

[Mark Pearce]

"Northumberland would have been heathland when Braid worked on it, too."

Thanks Mark,

Sadly, no longer Heathland in character, but popped up prominently on the recent Racecourse thread.

There had been some momentum behind trying to recover the heathland character but, sadly, the current committee don't seem interested in the heritage of the club, or what makes for a good golf course.

[Simon Barrington]

There had been some momentum behind trying to recover the heathland character but, sadly, the current committee don't seem interested in the heritage of the club, or what makes for a good golf course.

Sadly it can take a very long time to influence even the most obvious (to some of us) improvements in agronomy, environment and design intent.

Committees & Boards can be well-meaning but lack relevant knowledge, Tom Simpson famously called them "Invincibly Ignorant" which might be a bit strong...

Just have to hope that Heathland recovery projects like The Addington, Woking & St. Georges Hill raise the profile of such approaches.
Getting a local wildlife trust on side can help too...keep at it.

[Chris Hughes]

James would have voted to keep the sheep and majestic Highland cows...

[Simon Barrington]

James would have voted to keep the sheep and majestic Highland cows...

Baaaah! LOL

[Simon Barrington]

First let me thank oyu for the link Thomas as I have always found Braid's courses to be marvels without fail.
And thanks all for a very enjoyable, scholarly, and civil discussion of a very subjective topic.
I tread among Giants here but reflecting on the comment regarding Braid's limitations of direct supervision led me to recall Perranporth, one of the wildest rides I have ever undertaken and a cracking time. Making golf work on a site like this surely demands intimate involvement as leaving this up to construction crews or a  proxy seems very unlikely? Isn't Painswick similarly by Braid as well?

Hello Ward

Re. Painswick - This was initially the work of David Brown (then Pro at Malvern) c.1891. There is no record of any James Braid involvement, and I cannot find any proof of him playing it either in his playing record.

Re. Perranporth - Most certainly this is James Braid's original work. A great example of his routing talent for sure. A rollercoaster of fun on the cliff top links.

I note there is one old local press report that has been conveniently misunderstood and recently quoted (on Youtube) by some wishing (far too readily) to throw shade on Braid, presumably to "permit" them (or the consulting architect) to suggest future changes to the course.

But I have discovered after exhaustive research that this single local press reference was from a self-publicist in an anonymous column, which was written by either a close associate of the Amateur golfer concerned or possibly even himself under a nom de plume. There are numerous puff pieces regarding the man concerned, who was in fact simply asked by Braid to stake out Braid's agreed plan in his absence, and for Braid to review this on his return (which he did to Braid's satisfaction).

The person concerned had known desire to be involved in design work and himself had previously offered up a routing for the new course which was rejected. So Braid was utilising someone locally who knew the site to assist him in staking out what he had provided a detailed plan for. But he may not have known that the same person may later claim some attribution

So it is a story of interest, as it shows the need for detailed and thorough research (you can't always believe what your read in the press) and a wider perspective of context of a period when class structures and desire for amateur players to become architects themselves existed. Those of the amateur classes were also those in control or influence of the press, so we sometimes have to use a skeptical eye in research.

Thanks for your kind words and interest in the Pods, Part 2 came out earlier today (as Dai posted earlier)

[Simon Barrington]

"It would be interesting to know how much Swinley Forest cost to build, or Sunningdale, and how those costs compared to say Dalmahoy or East Renfrewshire for instance. I tend to think the difference in rep for a lot of these courses is more than the quality of the site and the build budget.
Niall"

In terms of budgets I can't speak and defer to Adam re. Swinley and Sunningdale New.
Apart from the notable fact, confirmed by Adrian Pepper in his "New" book, that Braid was consulted as to the suitability of the additional land at Chobham Common for the New Course in the first instance.

But for context Braid's total fees for Dalmahoy (2x Courses) were £59-12-0 and expenses of £28-1-0. He made at least 16 visits to the site between 1924-1928

For East Renfrewshire his total fees were £34-13-0 and expenses of £11-18-0, making only 5 visits as his work at Walton restricted his availability, so he worked closely with the Club's first Professional/Greenkeeper Tom Dobson to successfully deliver the project to his design (which remains largely unchanged).

Cheers

[ward peyronnin]

Golf serendipity is very satisfying. I have played golf with Tom Dobson's, also Tom Dobson, son at Colleton River and read the Reefrenshew club history and will share this discussionn with him after Christmas. He hails form the times when he was not allowed to play the course but learned his ga,e down the road somewhere.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Without having read the thread in entirety, my analysis of Braid’s work from seeing many of his courses, is that he embraced quirky routing more - with all the variety in holes that throws up - but was less refined and elegant in his detailing than Colt.


I am not as enamoured with Perranporth as some. A very difficult site to route a course over (given its macro convex nature) and I’m not sure the result is that much a success. Good fun though.

[Simon Barrington]

Golf serendipity is very satisfying. I have played golf with Tom Dobson's, also Tom Dobson, son at Colleton River and read the Reefrenshew club history and will share this discussionn with him after Christmas. He hails form the times when he was not allowed to play the course but learned his ga,e down the road somewhere.

Ward, That's wonderful.


I'd be very interested in the book's contents (If you can scans or photos of relevant pages relating to the design and build that would great, they'll only be used for non-commercial research purposes so no copyright infringement. Please DM me on here or via jamesbraidresearch@gmail.com, Many Thanks)


What Tom's son, Tom may recall from conversations with his father would be golden, the information I shared is from others (who I know to be thorough) but always keen to find such incredible "primary" sources for deeper understanding.


Cheers

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

Re. Perranporth - Most certainly this is James Braid's original work. A great example of his routing talent for sure. A rollercoaster of fun on the cliff top links.


I note there is one old local press report that has been conveniently misunderstood and recently quoted (on Youtube) by some wishing (far too readily) to throw shade on Braid, presumably to "permit" them (or the consulting architect) to suggest future changes to the course.

Simon - can you share more on this?  What changes are they looking to perform at Perranporth?  Love Perranporth and highly recommend anyone into GCA to visit....

[Adam Lawrence]

Re. Perranporth - Most certainly this is James Braid's original work. A great example of his routing talent for sure. A rollercoaster of fun on the cliff top links.

I note there is one old local press report that has been conveniently misunderstood and recently quoted (on Youtube) by some wishing (far too readily) to throw shade on Braid, presumably to "permit" them (or the consulting architect) to suggest future changes to the course.

Simon - can you share more on this?  What changes are they looking to perform at Perranporth?  Love Perranporth and highly recommend anyone into GCA to visit....

My pal Tim Lobb is consulting at Perranporth. Here is an article we published in GCA in 2022 just after he was appointed there: [size=78%]https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/perranporth-appoints-lobb-partners-for-course-review[/size]

[Simon Barrington]

"Simon - can you share more on this?  What changes are they looking to perform at Perranporth?  Love Perranporth and highly recommend anyone into GCA to visit...."

Harry this may be helpful for what is desired by the management and I do not know what is or has been proposed, if anything so far, to the membership.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXpkjzAkzBE

I felt in this video the Course Manger, Rob to be really thoughtful and passionate about Perranporth, his surfaces and very realistic about what should/might be done, or not.

My disappointment/concern is the misinformation provided by Dan Hendriksen at c.21 mins into the Video.
Why this was even mentioned is a bit of a mystery, seemed a bit staged

Unfortunately, hackneyed mistaken “Braid Myths” are perpetuated…But never let the truth get in the way of a good (local) story…

I can evidence why I believe this is information to be both misinterpretation and incorrect.
It is, from my own extensive research, aided by others, unquestionably a course by James Braid.

I’d be very happy to assist Tim Lobb and/or the Club if they are interested, and very happy to dig through minute books and archives to corroborate what I have found from other sources.

Essentially, Mr. Knowles (as a local Amateur player of repute, and a key mover in the founding of the Club, and who notably had himself offered a rejected earlier routing) had allowed an anonymous unknown local column writer (which could have even been him) to exaggerate his role, and Dan (& Tim) have seemingly fallen for this historic embellishment almost 100 years later. (Those that control the Press, get to write their own history sometimes...)

[Thomas Dai]

My disappointment/concern is the misinformation provided by Dan Hendriksen at c.21 mins into the Video.

Same chap who keeps referring to any green with a step in it as a ‘MacKenzie’ even on courses where Dr Mack’ never went.
Atb

[Simon Barrington]

My disappointment/concern is the misinformation provided by Dan Hendriksen at c.21 mins into the Video.

Same chap who keeps referring to any green with a step in it as a ‘MacKenzie’ even on courses where Dr Mack’ never went.
Atb

I felt he kind of put Tim on the spot, which was a bit unfair.

Tim has done good work in the Surrey Heathlands, Blackmoor has been great success.
But, I know he has little to no previous experience of James Braid's work, so he was evidently ill-prepared and/or uninformed about how Braid worked, and as such his assertions made in response were incorrect.
To the knowledgable, he looked a bit silly embracing the (false) idea it wasn't Braid's so readily.

Perranporth is an almost unique course and site; so it is important, and FUN!
That is down to Braid's routing.

[Simon Barrington]

Without having read the thread in entirety, my analysis of Braid’s work from seeing many of his courses, is that he embraced quirky routing more - with all the variety in holes that throws up - but was less refined and elegant in his detailing than Colt.

I am not as enamoured with Perranporth as some. A very difficult site to route a course over (given its macro convex nature) and I’m not sure the result is that much a success. Good fun though.

Hi Ally

The thread and spirit of the Podcasts is absolutely not a Braid vs. Colt comparator.

It is merely about seeking higher recognition of Braid's work.

But:
Quirk - Tick
Routing - Tick
Variety - Tick
All Braid traits/results to celebrate.

The detailing comment is very much budget and maintenance dependant, especially given the march of time since these courses were built.
Colt certainly did more well-funded courses in higher economic areas, so perhaps these have seen less degradation.
Braid was capable of similar quality of work, given the money and site at the outset (with similar maintenance and care since).

Interested in your Perranporth comment, you acknowledge the unique and very difficult site, and that Braid created a "Good Fun" outcome...how does that not equal success?

So I'd be very interested, if you'd like to take on the challenge, if you wouldn't mind providing an alternative 18 Hole routing on that site.
Time to get the "topo" out over the Holidays! May take a bit longer than the great festive jigsaw challenge thread on here!

Simple Rules:
No earth moving beyond benching greens, which are to be (predominantly) at grade level.
Utilising only the parcel of land that the existing 18 holes use, and absolutely no replication of any existing Braid hole/corridor.
All holes to be novel.

Cheers

[Simon Barrington]

"Simon - can you share more on this?  What changes are they looking to perform at Perranporth?  Love Perranporth and highly recommend anyone into GCA to visit...."


This video may also give some clues, Tim Lobb w. the impressive Course Manager, Rob Cook for a Clubhouse Chat.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npxn0ST1vOk

Cheers

[Simon Barrington]

Re. Perranporth:


This is an epic previous thread for those that don't know the course, Bravo Garland et al.

   https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,51587.0.html


From another later thread:

"Perranporth this afternoon.
Completely crazy golf. I’m not sure if there were more than two holes without a barber pole.

Some fantastic stuff. Love quirky holes but to be honest, when it keeps up for 18 on the trot, it just becomes a bit tiring.

Unsure why Braid only designed three one-shotters on this land (2 over 200 yards). The best way to bring a little normality to proceedings would have been to build a couple more.

Utterly unique."

[Quote - from Ally Mcintosh - May 30th 2019 - Golf Club Atlas]