James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast

[ward peyronnin]

First let me thank oyu for the link Thomas as I have always found Braid's courses to be marvels without fail.
And thanks all for a very enjoyable, scholarly, and civil discussion of a very subjective topic.
I tread among Giants here but reflecting on the comment regarding Braid's limitations of direct supervision led me to recall Perranporth, one of the wildest rides I have ever undertaken and a cracking time. Making golf work on a site like this surely demands intimate involvement as leaving this up to construction crews or a  proxy seems very unlikely? Isn't Painswick similarly by Braid as well?

[Adam Lawrence]

I think fundamentally I am in Sean's corner here. There is no doubt that Braid was a fine architect, and has been much underrated for most of the time since his death, but it is fundamentally inconceivable to mention him in the same breath as Colt, imo.

If Gleneagles (which I love and which is unarguably world-class) is Braid's best work, does it match up to Portrush, Muirfield, St George's Hill or Sunny New? Perhaps individually it does; but to have done work of that standard over and over again elevates Colt way beyond any of his contemporaries in my opinion.

FWIW my current total of Colt & Co related projects numbers 454.


Edited to add: I think it is unarguable that snobbery is the fundamental reason why Braid is underrated. The British golf media of the early twentieth century, dominated by Darwin, was a pretty upper-middle class at the least environment. Braid did well to get as much recognition as he did from that world...

[Adam Lawrence]

Quick thought about the Eden. Does anyone recall if it was a competition or did Colt just walk into the job as an R&A member?
Cheers,
F.

FBD,

Good question, not sure I've ever heard. I know that Neil Crafter spent a bit of time exploring whether McKenzie was due a joint credit in the design (the answer is no) but not sure whether he bottomed out how the job was commissioned.

Niall

I want to say the Dr Mac at Eden theory was debunked by Adam, but I don’t recall.

Ciao

MacKenzie undoubtedly made some inspection visits to St Andrews during the span of the Eden Course project, but there is zero evidence of his having any input into the actual design of the course. The 'MacKenzie at Eden' thesis is circumstantial, based on an opinion that the Eden greens were too wild to have been Colt seul, but there is hard evidence, from Swinley and St George's Hill among others, that the immediately pre-WW1 period represented Colt at his most adventurous in green designs.

[Simon Barrington]

"MacKenzie undoubtedly made some inspection visits to St Andrews during the span of the Eden Course project, but there is zero evidence of his having any input into the actual design of the course. The 'MacKenzie at Eden' thesis is circumstantial, based on an opinion that the Eden greens were too wild to have been Colt seul, but there is hard evidence, from Swinley and St George's Hill among others, that the immediately pre-WW1 period represented Colt at his most adventurous in green designs."

Some of the images I have seen of the early Camberley Heath greens would support that

[Simon Barrington]

I think fundamentally I am in Sean's corner here. There is no doubt that Braid was a fine architect, and has been much underrated for most of the time since his death, but it is fundamentally inconceivable to mention him in the same breath as Colt, imo.
If Gleneagles (which I love and which is unarguably world-class) is Braid's best work, does it match up to Portrush, Muirfield, St George's Hill or Sunny New? Perhaps individually it does; but to have done work of that standard over and over again elevates Colt way beyond any of his contemporaries in my opinion.
FWIW my current total of Colt & Co related projects numbers 454.
Edited to add: I think it is unarguable that snobbery is the fundamental reason why Braid is underrated. The British golf media of the early twentieth century, dominated by Darwin, was a pretty upper-middle class at the least environment. Braid did well to get as much recognition as he did from that world...

Thanks Adam

Good perspective, and there is no fight for a corner to be taken, my hope is only the reassessment of Braid's talent upwards, rather than anyone elses (especially Colt's) downwards. It is not a zero-sum game.

We will never know if Braid had dedicated himself solely to design what would he have produced consistently, if Gleneagles was his ceiling it would be high. The variety and skill he showed in the limited available time indicates he had much more to offer.

Can you imagine what a continuation of their one-off situational partnership may have produced.
Braid had a great deal to offer in routings and how to challenge the very best players.
The Braid/Colt and Colt/Braid courses that are out there indicate it might have been quite the success?
But that, of course, is conjecture.

As previously, Colt was IMHO the consumate and generous collaborator/mentor.

Thanks & Cheers

[Thomas Dai]

Here’s part II of the podcast - https://www.cookiejargolf.com/ - CJ Pod episode 282


And here’s the location of Southsea pitch-n-putt as mentioned - https://www.instantstreetview.com/@50.782123,-1.061916,17z,2t

Atb