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Thomas Dai

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James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« on: December 17, 2024, 07:33:17 AM »
Here is a link to the first of three CookieJar podcasts with James Braid historian and contributor herein Simon Barrington.
https://t.co/9pYGVV7AIv

To be as elite a player as James Braid was plus to also be as elite as he was at laying out courses often with little funds available and on less than ideal land is pretty remarkable.
Someone with a truly outstanding and unique position within the game I’d suggest.
Enjoy.
Atb

Niall C

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2024, 08:14:22 AM »
David


Are you suggesting that typically Braid was given poorer land and had more limited budgets than what his contemporaries typically got in the UK ?


Niall

Mark Pearce

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2024, 10:05:47 AM »
David


Are you suggesting that typically Braid was given poorer land and had more limited budgets than what his contemporaries typically got in the UK ?


Niall
Indeed, an interesting suggestion.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 02:22:28 AM »
Here is a link to the first of three CookieJar podcasts with James Braid historian and contributor herein Simon Barrington.
https://t.co/9pYGVV7AIv

Dai, thank you so much for sharing. Too kind.

It was joy to be able to introduce James Braid's story as a man, golfer, and character of contrasts to a wider audience, hopefully in an engaging manner with a connected narrative.
There are several architectural nuggets in Episode 1, and more to come in Episode 2 which is more focused on his unsurpassed design output.
Some of the stories will surprise, amuse, and hopefully interest GCA participants.
Would be good if these may even cause debate/discussion on here.
There is much misunderstanding and (false) assumption about Braid's work and his contribution to our shared passion.

For those without Apple accounts it can be found on the front page here:
https://www.cookiejargolf.com

Cheers & Thanks again
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:07:19 AM by Simon Barrington »

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 03:06:07 AM »
David
Are you suggesting that typically Braid was given poorer land and had more limited budgets than what his contemporaries typically got in the UK ?
Niall
I'll let Dai answer for himself, but...


I would note that Braid would take on smaller prosaic projects (often on wild land) that the amateur architects priced themselves out of.
They saw it both as an art and as a business. Lesser jobs satisfied neither.

Braid saw it as a passion and his responsibility to make the game accessible to all (as seen by involvement in Women's courses, Municipal courses incl. the oldest existing Pitch & Putt, Artisan movement and the PGA) hard to argue he didn't succeed.

There are numerous examples of others asking for more in terms of fees, often multiples of his.
His fees were incredibly reasonable, especially when one looks at the resulting courses.
He created FUN, challenging, good strategic golf for many that has stood the test of time (well over a century in many cases).

Having said that, when he did have a larger budget which was often the case, and I note he never advertised for his design work, he soared to great heights...too many to list here.
Additionally he was the first "Open Doctor" (Prestwick, Troon, Deal & Troon were all remodelled extensively and respectfully by him for Open Championships)

Not many have the range he had on every type of land, his routing skill was incredible; the variety in his work, including in style, is truly astonishing.

Cheers & I hope you enjoy the podcast for more...;-)
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 03:08:13 AM by Simon Barrington »

Niall C

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 03:53:40 AM »
Simon,


From what I’ve seen they were basically all chasing the same jobs, with the possible exceptions of Simpson/Fowler/Abercrombie/Croome who seem to have been fairly selective. Could be wrong about Simpson etc as they certainly weren’t shy about advertising their services.


But certainly the likes of MacKenzie and Colt happily did redesigns, minor alterations work, as well as municipals (the Burgh course at NB, Hazelhead and several munis down in Leeds area IIRC) and nine holers (Fort William). Did Mac ever get a job in the UK as prestigious as Gleneagles ? Probably not. Did Colt ? St George’s Hill maybe ? To my mind they were all jobbing architects.
 
Niall

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 06:14:56 AM »
Simon,
From what I’ve seen they were basically all chasing the same jobs, with the possible exceptions of Simpson/Fowler/Abercrombie/Croome who seem to have been fairly selective. Could be wrong about Simpson etc as they certainly weren’t shy about advertising their services.
 
But certainly the likes of MacKenzie and Colt happily did redesigns, minor alterations work, as well as municipals (the Burgh course at NB, Hazelhead and several munis down in Leeds area IIRC) and nine holers (Fort William). Did Mac ever get a job in the UK as prestigious as Gleneagles ? Probably not. Did Colt ? St George’s Hill maybe ? To my mind they were all jobbing architects.
Niall
Niall,

Perhaps those few exceptions are enough in your mind...but the examples to the contrary are far more in number.

When one reads why others did not get many of the smaller jobs that Braid did, it is clear their pricing was an issue, numerous comments/minutes/letters etc. I and others have researched confirm this.

Perhaps you could more accurately claim Braid underpriced his work, and I would wholeheartedly agree given its high quality.
Braid could also offer a pretty sought after Exhibition Match on opening (usually with at least one of the Big 4, The Triumvirate & Herd) which could have been a factor too?

But don't let the bulk of evidence get in the way...


The examples you use are a bit of a stretch...

"the Burgh Course at NB" now known as The Glen GC (& previously "The East Links") was surely designed by....
....James Braid & Ben Sayers?

The Good Doctor of course sought the Gleneagles job for himself, it is abundantly clear from his writings he really wanted the job, and he was by his own admission first onto the site (of many).
He simply did not get the commission.
Perhaps his fee (which he usually bundled within the entire fee to internalise revenue into the Construction Company he created with his Brother) was too high?
So, it is an odd example to cite (especially as you have been repeatedly and wrongly suggesting it was CKH's work anyway!)

Colt is a different case, I consider him the most generous and open collaborator (in a positive sense) in GCA of the period, he worked with so many others (including Braid, as I recently evidenced along w. Adam) and famously cleared Dr. Mackenzie's Debts after he passed away.

I defer to Adam of course for Colt's fee structures, but I have come across numerous examples where Colt's fee was cited as multiples of Braid's for the same jobs.

To imply Colt didn't seek or get higher budget commissions is just wrong; Sunningdale New (regardless of incumbency as Secretary), Swinley Forest, Wentworth, Stoke Park and many others were notably higher budget "prestigious" jobs, upon which Colt delivered really great work!

It also doesn't imply Colt didn't wish to do lesser work, remodels, alterations etc. just that the economics of running a design firm with colleagues mean the pricing may have been an issue sometimes.


I am simply raising up Braid (as under-appreciated, and being far too generous on his fees) rather than talking down others (as you seem to do, especially with Braid for some unfathomable reason).

BTW - The expression "jobbing architects" is not one I would use to describe the historic leaders of (nor modern practioners of) the profession respectfully on here.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 06:17:24 AM by Simon Barrington »

Sean_A

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 06:16:22 AM »
Simon,

From what I’ve seen they were basically all chasing the same jobs, with the possible exceptions of Simpson/Fowler/Abercrombie/Croome who seem to have been fairly selective. Could be wrong about Simpson etc as they certainly weren’t shy about advertising their services.

But certainly the likes of MacKenzie and Colt happily did redesigns, minor alterations work, as well as municipals (the Burgh course at NB, Hazelhead and several munis down in Leeds area IIRC) and nine holers (Fort William). Did Mac ever get a job in the UK as prestigious as Gleneagles ? Probably not. Did Colt ? St George’s Hill maybe ? To my mind they were all jobbing architects.
 
Niall

I would argue that Braid didn't get anything close to the top jobs that Colt did. I would also say that designing a new course in St Andrews was at least as prestigious as Gleneagles. Colt was the king of London and that was the money pot. I also believe the the quality jobs and sites bear out the quality of the designs. Braid is nowhere near matching Colt in terms of an architectural cv. That is no slight on Braid, its just the way it was. Luckily, Colt was was an excellent archie. The other archies? Braid can stand as tall as them. Although, I am not sure that is how the powers that be at the time thought.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Niall C

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 06:54:20 AM »
Sean


Interesting. I hadn't thought of the Eden course. Yes, it's in St Andrews but it was always going to play second, third or fourth fiddle to TOC so I wouldn't put it at the same level as Gleneagles. Granted though, Colt did well out of the courses built in the heathland areas round London. However let me ask you this; generally those courses are on very good sites but is there current renown not more about the location relative to London; there proximity to each other and the absolute quality of the designs ?


In other words did Braid not get the opportunity to design on similar land with similar budgets ? Out of 500 design commissions there must have been some comparable opportunities, no ?


Niall

Marty Bonnar

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 07:14:49 AM »
I once spent a fun afternoon in the Carnegie Trust HQ in Dunfermline. I was really looking for any MacKenzie material (didn’t find any), but did find a fair selection of Braid documents, including hand-written Invoices for his work at Dunfermline Golf Club.
Being a Fife boy, maybe they thought to give him the business! (The paperwork was all on letterheaded paper with his Walton Heath address).
Quick thought about the Eden. Does anyone recall if it was a competition or did Colt just walk into the job as an R&A member?
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Sean_A

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 07:36:46 AM »
Sean


Interesting. I hadn't thought of the Eden course. Yes, it's in St Andrews but it was always going to play second, third or fourth fiddle to TOC so I wouldn't put it at the same level as Gleneagles. Granted though, Colt did well out of the courses built in the heathland areas round London. However let me ask you this; generally those courses are on very good sites but is there current renown not more about the location relative to London; there proximity to each other and the absolute quality of the designs ?


In other words did Braid not get the opportunity to design on similar land with similar budgets ? Out of 500 design commissions there must have been some comparable opportunities, no ?


Niall


In hindsight, of course Gleneagles is the better course. That, however, doesn't diminish prestige of getting to design a course in St Andrews.


Yes, that is my point, Colt received the better commissions, many of which were well funded. I don't know of a Braid inland course that compares to the London heathlands. The closest is Gleneagles, but it isn't heathland. That said, Gleneagles is on par with the best heathlands in London...imo of course. But Colt repeated his successes over and and over...and yes, some of these courses are rightfully highly regarded. I am of the belief that at least some of Colt's lesser designs are nearly as good architecturally as his big name courses, its just that the land isn't as good. For me, Colt's cv is head and shoulders above Braid's. I don't wish to sound negative toward Braid because I think he was a very fine architect with some bullet proof course designs. He simply didn't have the advantages of Colt's connections, education and background which helped lead to garnering so many excellent commissions...but Colt had to deliver the goods and he did this in spades. 


I loom forward to listening to Simon's podcasts. They should be informative.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Niall C

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 08:15:55 AM »

Quick thought about the Eden. Does anyone recall if it was a competition or did Colt just walk into the job as an R&A member?
Cheers,
F.


FBD,


Good question, not sure I've ever heard. I know that Neil Crafter spent a bit of time exploring whether McKenzie was due a joint credit in the design (the answer is no) but not sure whether he bottomed out how the job was commissioned.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 08:31:43 AM »
Sean


Be careful, looming forward can be dangerous.


Anyway, from what I can discern from your post you think that Colt got more really good sites than Braid as well as bigger budgets ? I must confess I've not paid that close attention to build budgets when I've come across them other than in the early 1920's, MacKenzies initial budget always seemed to be about £3,000 irrespective of what he was doing. Being slightly flippant there but in that kind of ballpark.


It would be interesting to know how much Swinley Forest cost to build, or Sunningdale, and how those costs compared to say Dalmahoy or East Renfrewshire for instance. I tend to think the difference in rep for a lot of these courses is more than the quality of the site and the build budget.


Niall

James Reader

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 09:45:05 AM »
Am I right in thinking that for many of his designs and remodels Braid didn’t spend any more than a day on site - simply walking the land, pegging out tees and greens, and sketching out bunkering schemes on the train back to his day job at Walton Heath? That’s certainly the impression I was left with having read the Moreton & Cumming book (admittedly some time ago). Does that mean there is a significant difference between his ‘usual’ approach and that of his full-time contemporaries such as Colt and Mackenzie, who would typically spend more time on site and have a much greater input during the construction phase? Looking at the Mackenzie Chronology, he seems to have been on site on at least 8 different occasions during the construction of Bury GC, for example.


Braid’s approach may have been different on a few of his higher profile commissions (and perhaps Colt and Mackenzie did some ‘flying visit’ jobs as well), but it strikes me that the sheer volume of courses he had a hand in and the fact that he also had a full-time job as a club pro as well as his playing commitments make comparisons of their relative skills across the full body of their respective works difficult. Would Colt’s portfolio be as impressive if he hadn’t given up the Sunningdale secretary role? Or Mackenzie’s if he’d continued his medical practice?




Sean_A

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 09:58:40 AM »

Quick thought about the Eden. Does anyone recall if it was a competition or did Colt just walk into the job as an R&A member?
Cheers,
F.


FBD,


Good question, not sure I've ever heard. I know that Neil Crafter spent a bit of time exploring whether McKenzie was due a joint credit in the design (the answer is no) but not sure whether he bottomed out how the job was commissioned.


Niall

I want to say the Dr Mac at Eden theory was debunked by Adam, but I don’t recall.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #15 on: Today at 02:17:42 AM »
" I don't know of a Braid inland course that compares to the London heathlands. The closest is Gleneagles, but it isn't heathland. That said, Gleneagles is on par with the best heathlands in London...imo of course...
...I loom look forward to listening to Simon's podcasts. They should be informative.
Ciao"

Thanks Sean, hope you enjoy them, nice to have the opportunity to bring James Braid's work to the attention of a wider audience.

In terms of Heathland, your memory does you a small disservice, by example here are a few Heathland courses that Braid designed or worked extensively upon, some of which you have profiled:

   Ipswich (Purdis Heath)
   Sherwood Forest
   North Hants
   Hankley Common
   Orsett
   Woodbridge
   Berkhamsted
   Scotscraig
   Lanark
   Mullingar
   Golspie (in part Heathland)
   Blairgowrie
   Forfar

Cheers

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #16 on: Today at 03:13:18 AM »
Am I right in thinking that for many of his designs and remodels Braid didn’t spend any more than a day on site - simply walking the land, pegging out tees and greens, and sketching out bunkering schemes on the train back to his day job at Walton Heath? That’s certainly the impression I was left with having read the Moreton & Cumming book (admittedly some time ago). Does that mean there is a significant difference between his ‘usual’ approach and that of his full-time contemporaries such as Colt and Mackenzie, who would typically spend more time on site and have a much greater input during the construction phase? Looking at the Mackenzie Chronology, he seems to have been on site on at least 8 different occasions during the construction of Bury GC, for example.

Braid’s approach may have been different on a few of his higher profile commissions (and perhaps Colt and Mackenzie did some ‘flying visit’ jobs as well), but it strikes me that the sheer volume of courses he had a hand in and the fact that he also had a full-time job as a club pro as well as his playing commitments make comparisons of their relative skills across the full body of their respective works difficult. Would Colt’s portfolio be as impressive if he hadn’t given up the Sunningdale secretary role? Or Mackenzie’s if he’d continued his medical practice?
Hello James

Good observation, the circumstances of available time of course impacted upon the works all practictioners could devote to the craft, Braid had a day-job which certainly restricted his design work. But his work is no less impressive for it, some might say even more impressive despite. That itself may have been a contributor to his low fees (as not his sole source of income) and propensity to accept smaller jobs that could be fitted in around his scarce time. But to have 520+ design attributions (so far and growing) given that lack of availability is incredible productivity.

Whilst that is the case for some of Braid's work that he had a few or only a single visit, the capability he had to do such brief visits is often cited not so much to say he just dropped "18 stakes in a day" (which was I believe an accusation thrown at Tom Bendelow initially, and one also directed at Old Tom Morris) but to note his incredible talent in possessing a near photographic memory for holes and topography.

Given he had only 90 days available to be away from Walton Heath (by his contract) he used his time incredibly efficiently and would relate perfectly layouts, topography, routings and bunker positions/styles to map makers on his return (having considered carefully what he saw on his return train journeys). I do not believe it was his preference to work such a way, but a necessity/problem that he was able to solve by his mental and visual genius.

It was such a notable and rare talent that it is worth mentioning, and as you say many writers have done so, but it has morphed into some sort of urban myth that he always worked this way; which, from his logs and more throrough research, is absolutely not the case.

BTW - At the other end of the scale are two international projects where he worked solely from topographical maps as he wouldn't travel; St Andrews GC of NY (4 Holes and advice on bunkering and trees) and at Singapore Island (36 Holes).
But that was not unique, Donald Ross is believed to have not visited some of his projects at all (please excuse me Ross experts, if I have fallen into another urban myth there)

Returning to your observation, you may recall from our previous disscussion on Sherwood Forest that on jobs which had; the scope, budget, and importance to him that he visited multiple times prior, during and post construction (for revisions).

On a recent post re. Gleneagles (Queens) I noted he visited 9 time in one year alone, and when researching courses and reading George Payne's incredible book (which utilises Braid's personal ledgers including train expenses) he quite often made multiple visits to his major works. At his precious Henley GC (the "Home of Advanced Golf" TM) he returned to personally demonstrate and supervise the building of bunkers during the winter.

His selection of trusted and enagaged construction partners was also key to some of his best work (yes I know its not "design & build").
He used local people sometimes (as at Henley GC where he personally trained the supervising Director of Construction, Ernest Fryer) and had long associations with Hawtree & Taylor, and John Stutt (who said his instructions were most precise and detailed).

So a compliment has become a myth, and sometimes a schtick easily and conveniently misused in criticism of his almost unique talent and work practice.

As I said previously when he had time, money and land he flew very high.
And on those numerous lesser projects he provided good strategic golf of incredible variety (and not formulaic) that has stood the test of time.

To have over 400 courses still with his work in evidence on the ground today, is some testimony to that quality and relevance.
But his body of work is not just about quanitity and longevity, his best stands up with the very best IMHO.

Mark Pearce

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #17 on: Today at 05:30:04 AM »
" I don't know of a Braid inland course that compares to the London heathlands. The closest is Gleneagles, but it isn't heathland. That said, Gleneagles is on par with the best heathlands in London...imo of course...
...I loom look forward to listening to Simon's podcasts. They should be informative.
Ciao"

Thanks Sean, hope you enjoy them, nice to have the opportunity to bring James Braid's work to the attention of a wider audience.

In terms of Heathland, your memory does you a small disservice, by example here are a few Heathland courses that Braid designed or worked extensively upon, some of which you have profiled:

   Ipswich (Purdis Heath)
   Sherwood Forest
   North Hants
   Hankley Common
   Orsett
   Woodbridge
   Berkhamsted
   Scotscraig
   Lanark
   Mullingar
   Golspie (in part Heathland)
   Blairgowrie
   Forfar

Cheers
Northumberland would have been heathland when Braid worked on it, too.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

James Reader

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #18 on: Today at 05:53:14 AM »
Thanks for your response to my post Simon (I won’t ‘quote’ it, in the interests of keeping the thread shorter).

I certainly wasn’t downplaying Braid’s talents in any way, and I think his best work stands up to anyone and is underrated - not least by Sherwood Forest, which has a new sign on the 1st tee proclaiming it a Colt course (with the wrong date as well!).

Part of what I was getting at was a question as to whether his contemporaries also had the variety of approach to projects that he did. Are there also original Colt designs where he were just on site for a single visit? Or did they only accept (higher paid) jobs which allowed them to more on-site involvement through the design and build?

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #19 on: Today at 06:16:29 AM »
Thanks James

I didn't think you were at all, and was just taking the opportunity to share more broadly that nuance about Braid & single visits with all those on here, rather than disagreeing with you. Sorry if I gave that impression, and my lack of brevity is a failing!

I'll defer to Adam L on Colt's lesser work and his visits to sites.
I think he has the number of Colt projects up at c.400 now so there must be some more prosaic work in there.

In terms of Sherwood Forest the sign you mention is a prime example of a desired narrative over the facts, as you kindly shared with me (from the Club's own earlier book!).
There is so much Braid provenance, and as Adam has previously confirmed very little for Colt.

Courses can/should be attributed to two (or more) architects if the evidence is there, but the desire to fix onto a single notable Architect as a "Brand" is strong.
(I discussed that briefly on Part 1 of the Podcast re. Troon, and more in Part 2 - if it makes the edit)

Cheers
« Last Edit: Today at 06:18:10 AM by Simon Barrington »

Niall C

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #20 on: Today at 08:14:37 AM »
Simon


I find your comment on club's desire to fix on to a single notable architect as a brand as you put it, quite ironic as probably no other gca has "benefitted" in such a way as much as Braid. For all that he was prolific and got around a large number of courses, as you yourself have noted, many were redesigns or bunkering schemes. To tag those sorts of courses as Braid courses rather than courses that Braid was involved in is I think misleading. For sure in recent years more courses are being tagged as MacKenzie or Colt courses that come into the same bracket but I think the number is far less than for Braid.


Niall

Sean_A

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #21 on: Today at 09:03:52 AM »
" I don't know of a Braid inland course that compares to the London heathlands. The closest is Gleneagles, but it isn't heathland. That said, Gleneagles is on par with the best heathlands in London...imo of course...
...I loom look forward to listening to Simon's podcasts. They should be informative.
Ciao"

Thanks Sean, hope you enjoy them, nice to have the opportunity to bring James Braid's work to the attention of a wider audience.

In terms of Heathland, your memory does you a small disservice, by example here are a few Heathland courses that Braid designed or worked extensively upon, some of which you have profiled:

   Ipswich (Purdis Heath)
   Sherwood Forest
   North Hants
   Hankley Common
   Orsett
   Woodbridge
   Berkhamsted
   Scotscraig
   Lanark
   Mullingar
   Golspie (in part Heathland)
   Blairgowrie
   Forfar

Cheers


So, what I stated was correct...no? Do any of these courses measure up to the Sunningdales, St Georges Hill or Swinley Forest? I don't think so...which was my point. Braid was an excellent archie and I admire him greatly, but I believe I am on solid ground here. You may think otherwise and thats ok. We can agree to disagree.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #22 on: Today at 09:07:08 AM »
"Northumberland would have been heathland when Braid worked on it, too."

Thanks Mark,

Sadly, no longer Heathland in character, but popped up prominently on the recent Racecourse thread.

One more for the heathland list is the unsung Braid remodel of JHT's Municipal Course, Queens Park in Bournemouth.

Played it for the first time this summer, and despite all the usual challenges of golf in a heavily used public park filled with Dog Walkers it was so much fun.
Left the course smilng from ear to ear, wondering what it was and what it could be.
Flies a bit under the radar of neighbouring Meyrick Park, which others have suggested could be a great project.

I believe Queens Park could be one of the great (municipal) restorations in England, the bones are still there.
Lack of investment in this case has been a good thing, no poor spending to ruin the core golf.
It has aspects of Huntercombe, The Addington and New Zealand in feel and playing corridors (along with the usual lack of tree management)...there is some great topography too, well worth a play if in Bournemouth.

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #23 on: Today at 09:58:13 AM »
"So, what I stated was correct...no? Do any of these courses measure up to the Sunningdales, St Georges Hill or Swinley Forest? I don't think so...which was my point. Braid was an excellent archie and I admire him greatly, but I believe I am on solid ground here. You may think otherwise and thats ok. We can agree to disagree.
Ciao"


Agreed Sean, I wasn't saying you were incorrect (that's too binary for me, especially on subjective views) was just highlighting and reminding that Braid also did some really good work on Heathland.

Ipswich (Purdis Heath) might be considered, by some, to be of the highest Heathland standard.
Hence me putting it up at the top, as it was the first to come to mind.
This was an original Braid layout, built and opened in 1928 when the members moved from the nearby Rushmere Heath (which Braid also designed, and probably should also have been on the list for completeness)

Several of the others have stunning renowned heathland holes (designed by Braid) on them, e.g. The 7th at Hankley Common
But, perhaps those courses are are not as cohesive as eighteens as the very best.
Mostly as they were extensions from existing nine-holers or revisions of others' work rather than untouched land for Braid to use, like Ipswich. I think that may be why the majority seem to prefer Colt's Sunningdale New versus the Park Jnr./Colt Sunningdale Old.

Those three in the Surrey sandbelt undoubtedly set an extremely high bar, no argument here; Colt shines brightest on that land and in that locale.

Not challenging your opinion, and we both agree that Gleneagles stands in the highest bracket.

In that vein of agreement these Press reports of opinions made after play in an International Tournament at Gleneagles in 1921 are quite fun...

Walter Hagen said -
   “Under normal conditions the course would be one of the greatest in the world. The greens seem to have gone back a little, but even at that Gleneagles is one of the finest tests of golf that Scotland possessed.”

Fred McLeod went further -
    “The only other course in the world that will stand comparison with Gleneagles is Pine Valley”

J H Kirkwood (the Australian Pro, famous for his trick-shots)  -
    “Of the English and Scottish courses he had played on Gleneagles was easily the best.”

Emmet French was reported as expressing -
    “Gleneagles was one of the best courses he had played on. The only other course he knew that bore any comparison to it was Pine Valley in his own country. That was in the playing sense, but so far as setting was concerned the Perthshire course was beyond compare. It was the most glorious prospect he had ever seen.”

Cheers

« Last Edit: Today at 10:01:42 AM by Simon Barrington »

Simon Barrington

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Re: James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
« Reply #24 on: Today at 10:45:51 AM »
"Simon
I find your comment on club's desire to fix on to a single notable architect as a brand as you put it, quite ironic as probably no other gca has "benefitted" in such a way as much as Braid. For all that he was prolific and got around a large number of courses, as you yourself have noted, many were redesigns or bunkering schemes. To tag those sorts of courses as Braid courses rather than courses that Braid was involved in is I think misleading. For sure in recent years more courses are being tagged as MacKenzie or Colt courses that come into the same bracket but I think the number is far less than for Braid.
Niall"


Hello Niall,

Good point, but not ironic at all.

I agree that provenance and attribution should (when multiple parties are involved) not be solely the preserve of one favoured architect.

Correct attribution and understanding of the components of involvement and what now remains is what we should seek if possible.
But that is perhaps a nuance too far for those less involved in our echo-chamber.
It is also perceived as less marketable by UK Clubs, who don't always have that care or desire (but many do), they simply wish to attract visitors (especially US visitors).

Such prominence (which I am not convinced is as overly prevalent as you suggest) of Braid is most likely down to the sheer number of courses he was involved in, the advent of The Braid Society in 1996, the Association of James Braid Courses (setting up the reciprocal and discount arrangements for members of their currently 310 member clubs from c.2005), and various tourist boards setting up "Braid Trails" to stimulate their local economy.

This is no different to "Bonnie Wee Golf" recently setting up the "Old Tom Morris Trail" so successfully, when many of those courses have had later work by many other architects of note (HCEG at Muirfield for example).

I have stated previously that I don't agree with the catch-all description of a "Braid Course" (unless it is wholly original) more that a course "has significant work by Braid" etc.. I have even requested that several courses I have researched, but found that Braid was not involved but that still have such an attribution or claim, to be taken from the lists. That may give you a clue why I am now freelance and now have research independence.

I also have found several where Braid was not previously known to have been involved, and where he was in a very significant manner.
So it can work both ways, I just try to follow the evidence.

Of course I have an evident passion for Braid, but my interest is not solely about his work.

I am genuinely interested in the architecture of Willie Fernie, Tom Williamson, The Dunns, The Allans, JHT, Vardon and many others (Pro & Amateur) over here.
As well as others such as Travis, Ross, Langford & Moreau etc. overseas

Cheers

P.S. I do mention this on the Podcast, and at the risk of overly candid feedback I'd be interested in your (and others) thoughts if you do get to listen to them.
« Last Edit: Today at 10:51:26 AM by Simon Barrington »