GolfClubAtlas.com > Golf Course Architecture Discussion Group
James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
Niall C:
Simon,
From what I’ve seen they were basically all chasing the same jobs, with the possible exceptions of Simpson/Fowler/Abercrombie/Croome who seem to have been fairly selective. Could be wrong about Simpson etc as they certainly weren’t shy about advertising their services.
But certainly the likes of MacKenzie and Colt happily did redesigns, minor alterations work, as well as municipals (the Burgh course at NB, Hazelhead and several munis down in Leeds area IIRC) and nine holers (Fort William). Did Mac ever get a job in the UK as prestigious as Gleneagles ? Probably not. Did Colt ? St George’s Hill maybe ? To my mind they were all jobbing architects.
Niall
Simon Barrington:
--- Quote from: Niall C on December 18, 2024, 03:53:40 AM ---Simon,
From what I’ve seen they were basically all chasing the same jobs, with the possible exceptions of Simpson/Fowler/Abercrombie/Croome who seem to have been fairly selective. Could be wrong about Simpson etc as they certainly weren’t shy about advertising their services.
But certainly the likes of MacKenzie and Colt happily did redesigns, minor alterations work, as well as municipals (the Burgh course at NB, Hazelhead and several munis down in Leeds area IIRC) and nine holers (Fort William). Did Mac ever get a job in the UK as prestigious as Gleneagles ? Probably not. Did Colt ? St George’s Hill maybe ? To my mind they were all jobbing architects.
Niall
--- End quote ---
Niall,
Perhaps those few exceptions are enough in your mind...but the examples to the contrary are far more in number.
When one reads why others did not get many of the smaller jobs that Braid did, it is clear their pricing was an issue, numerous comments/minutes/letters etc. I and others have researched confirm this.
Perhaps you could more accurately claim Braid underpriced his work, and I would wholeheartedly agree given its high quality.
Braid could also offer a pretty sought after Exhibition Match on opening (usually with at least one of the Big 4, The Triumvirate & Herd) which could have been a factor too?
But don't let the bulk of evidence get in the way...
The examples you use are a bit of a stretch...
"the Burgh Course at NB" now known as The Glen GC (& previously "The East Links") was surely designed by....
....James Braid & Ben Sayers?
The Good Doctor of course sought the Gleneagles job for himself, it is abundantly clear from his writings he really wanted the job, and he was by his own admission first onto the site (of many).
He simply did not get the commission.
Perhaps his fee (which he usually bundled within the entire fee to internalise revenue into the Construction Company he created with his Brother) was too high?
So, it is an odd example to cite (especially as you have been repeatedly and wrongly suggesting it was CKH's work anyway!)
Colt is a different case, I consider him the most generous and open collaborator (in a positive sense) in GCA of the period, he worked with so many others (including Braid, as I recently evidenced along w. Adam) and famously cleared Dr. Mackenzie's Debts after he passed away.
I defer to Adam of course for Colt's fee structures, but I have come across numerous examples where Colt's fee was cited as multiples of Braid's for the same jobs.
To imply Colt didn't seek or get higher budget commissions is just wrong; Sunningdale New (regardless of incumbency as Secretary), Swinley Forest, Wentworth, Stoke Park and many others were notably higher budget "prestigious" jobs, upon which Colt delivered really great work!
It also doesn't imply Colt didn't wish to do lesser work, remodels, alterations etc. just that the economics of running a design firm with colleagues mean the pricing may have been an issue sometimes.
I am simply raising up Braid (as under-appreciated, and being far too generous on his fees) rather than talking down others (as you seem to do, especially with Braid for some unfathomable reason).
BTW - The expression "jobbing architects" is not one I would use to describe the historic leaders of (nor modern practioners of) the profession respectfully on here.
Sean_A:
--- Quote from: Niall C on December 18, 2024, 03:53:40 AM ---Simon,
From what I’ve seen they were basically all chasing the same jobs, with the possible exceptions of Simpson/Fowler/Abercrombie/Croome who seem to have been fairly selective. Could be wrong about Simpson etc as they certainly weren’t shy about advertising their services.
But certainly the likes of MacKenzie and Colt happily did redesigns, minor alterations work, as well as municipals (the Burgh course at NB, Hazelhead and several munis down in Leeds area IIRC) and nine holers (Fort William). Did Mac ever get a job in the UK as prestigious as Gleneagles ? Probably not. Did Colt ? St George’s Hill maybe ? To my mind they were all jobbing architects.
Niall
--- End quote ---
I would argue that Braid didn't get anything close to the top jobs that Colt did. I would also say that designing a new course in St Andrews was at least as prestigious as Gleneagles. Colt was the king of London and that was the money pot. I also believe the the quality jobs and sites bear out the quality of the designs. Braid is nowhere near matching Colt in terms of an architectural cv. That is no slight on Braid, its just the way it was. Luckily, Colt was was an excellent archie. The other archies? Braid can stand as tall as them. Although, I am not sure that is how the powers that be at the time thought.
Ciao
Niall C:
Sean
Interesting. I hadn't thought of the Eden course. Yes, it's in St Andrews but it was always going to play second, third or fourth fiddle to TOC so I wouldn't put it at the same level as Gleneagles. Granted though, Colt did well out of the courses built in the heathland areas round London. However let me ask you this; generally those courses are on very good sites but is there current renown not more about the location relative to London; there proximity to each other and the absolute quality of the designs ?
In other words did Braid not get the opportunity to design on similar land with similar budgets ? Out of 500 design commissions there must have been some comparable opportunities, no ?
Niall
Marty Bonnar:
I once spent a fun afternoon in the Carnegie Trust HQ in Dunfermline. I was really looking for any MacKenzie material (didn’t find any), but did find a fair selection of Braid documents, including hand-written Invoices for his work at Dunfermline Golf Club.
Being a Fife boy, maybe they thought to give him the business! (The paperwork was all on letterheaded paper with his Walton Heath address).
Quick thought about the Eden. Does anyone recall if it was a competition or did Colt just walk into the job as an R&A member?
Cheers,
F.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version