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James Braid and his contribution to golf - podcast
Simon Barrington:
--- Quote from: ward peyronnin on December 19, 2024, 11:11:21 AM ---First let me thank oyu for the link Thomas as I have always found Braid's courses to be marvels without fail.
And thanks all for a very enjoyable, scholarly, and civil discussion of a very subjective topic.
I tread among Giants here but reflecting on the comment regarding Braid's limitations of direct supervision led me to recall Perranporth, one of the wildest rides I have ever undertaken and a cracking time. Making golf work on a site like this surely demands intimate involvement as leaving this up to construction crews or a proxy seems very unlikely? Isn't Painswick similarly by Braid as well?
--- End quote ---
Hello Ward
Re. Painswick - This was initially the work of David Brown (then Pro at Malvern) c.1891. There is no record of any James Braid involvement, and I cannot find any proof of him playing it either in his playing record.
Re. Perranporth - Most certainly this is James Braid's original work. A great example of his routing talent for sure. A rollercoaster of fun on the cliff top links.
I note there is one old local press report that has been conveniently misunderstood and recently quoted (on Youtube) by some wishing (far too readily) to throw shade on Braid, presumably to "permit" them (or the consulting architect) to suggest future changes to the course.
But I have discovered after exhaustive research that this single local press reference was from a self-publicist in an anonymous column, which was written by either a close associate of the Amateur golfer concerned or possibly even himself under a nom de plume. There are numerous puff pieces regarding the man concerned, who was in fact simply asked by Braid to stake out Braid's agreed plan in his absence, and for Braid to review this on his return (which he did to Braid's satisfaction).
The person concerned had known desire to be involved in design work and himself had previously offered up a routing for the new course which was rejected. So Braid was utilising someone locally who knew the site to assist him in staking out what he had provided a detailed plan for. But he may not have known that the same person may later claim some attribution
So it is a story of interest, as it shows the need for detailed and thorough research (you can't always believe what your read in the press) and a wider perspective of context of a period when class structures and desire for amateur players to become architects themselves existed. Those of the amateur classes were also those in control or influence of the press, so we sometimes have to use a skeptical eye in research.
Thanks for your kind words and interest in the Pods, Part 2 came out earlier today (as Dai posted earlier)
Simon Barrington:
--- Quote from: Niall C on December 18, 2024, 08:31:43 AM ---"It would be interesting to know how much Swinley Forest cost to build, or Sunningdale, and how those costs compared to say Dalmahoy or East Renfrewshire for instance. I tend to think the difference in rep for a lot of these courses is more than the quality of the site and the build budget.
Niall"
--- End quote ---
In terms of budgets I can't speak and defer to Adam re. Swinley and Sunningdale New.
Apart from the notable fact, confirmed by Adrian Pepper in his "New" book, that Braid was consulted as to the suitability of the additional land at Chobham Common for the New Course in the first instance.
But for context Braid's total fees for Dalmahoy (2x Courses) were £59-12-0 and expenses of £28-1-0. He made at least 16 visits to the site between 1924-1928
For East Renfrewshire his total fees were £34-13-0 and expenses of £11-18-0, making only 5 visits as his work at Walton restricted his availability, so he worked closely with the Club's first Professional/Greenkeeper Tom Dobson to successfully deliver the project to his design (which remains largely unchanged).
Cheers
ward peyronnin:
Golf serendipity is very satisfying. I have played golf with Tom Dobson's, also Tom Dobson, son at Colleton River and read the Reefrenshew club history and will share this discussionn with him after Christmas. He hails form the times when he was not allowed to play the course but learned his ga,e down the road somewhere.
Ally Mcintosh:
Without having read the thread in entirety, my analysis of Braid’s work from seeing many of his courses, is that he embraced quirky routing more - with all the variety in holes that throws up - but was less refined and elegant in his detailing than Colt.
I am not as enamoured with Perranporth as some. A very difficult site to route a course over (given its macro convex nature) and I’m not sure the result is that much a success. Good fun though.
Simon Barrington:
--- Quote from: ward peyronnin on December 22, 2024, 08:23:15 AM ---Golf serendipity is very satisfying. I have played golf with Tom Dobson's, also Tom Dobson, son at Colleton River and read the Reefrenshew club history and will share this discussionn with him after Christmas. He hails form the times when he was not allowed to play the course but learned his ga,e down the road somewhere.
--- End quote ---
Ward, That's wonderful.
I'd be very interested in the book's contents (If you can scans or photos of relevant pages relating to the design and build that would great, they'll only be used for non-commercial research purposes so no copyright infringement. Please DM me on here or via jamesbraidresearch@gmail.com, Many Thanks)
What Tom's son, Tom may recall from conversations with his father would be golden, the information I shared is from others (who I know to be thorough) but always keen to find such incredible "primary" sources for deeper understanding.
Cheers
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