The rising and setting sun

[Jeff_Mingay]

As long as I've been studying golf architecture and working in the business (nearly 25 years now), I've never actually looked into how many of the world's best courses feature 1st and 18th holes that play into the rising and setting sun; long thought to be an architectural faux pas, of course. I did today, after finishing a routing for a potential new course with #1 heading east and #18 heading west.


The National Golf Links of America, Pebble Beach, Chicago Golf Club and LACC-North all feature 1st and 18th holes that play into the rising and setting sun. Cypress Point, Oakmont and Oakland HIlls-South all feature opening holes heading directly east. And, like Pebble Beach, the finishing hole at Pinehurst No. 2 heads directly west.


Admittedly, I've found it a bit annoying to start and finish a round with the sun in my face, early morning or evening. But, I'm curious, is it that big of a deal in the long run if such a routing/sequence of play works best for a particular property?

[Ally Mcintosh]

We had a long conversation on this in a thread a month or two ago.


Completely overplayed as a negative.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Interesting, I'm sorry I missed that.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Wish I could remember the title or basis of the thread.

[Tom_Doak]

We had a long conversation on this in a thread a month or two ago.

Completely overplayed as a negative.

That was Ally's opinion.  Many others thought it was important.


I have been wrestling with the very question today, on a routing for a new project.  The clubhouse almost has to be on a hilltop in the south-west corner of the site, which inevitably means that one or two of the starting and finishing holes play into the sun.  [The others can play more north-south.]


It is not quite as dire as it sounds because it's a winter club, and where the sun sets varies through the season.  Right now, close to the solstice with the sun setting more SW, the closing hole is the real problem, but the sunrise in the SE is not as much a factor.  By late spring, the sunrise will be further to the NE and the tables will turn.


P.S.  Add to your list of finishing holes that play west, the 18th at the TPC at Sawgrass.  That was by choice, because the TV cameras look back to the east from behind the green.

[Ally Mcintosh]

To summarise my opinion, we all know that routing is a series of question marks and compromises. Every architect puts different emphasis on different choices. The importance of those priorities / choices makes the individual’s design DNA.


I’ve just always been amazed how high a priority so many architects seem to consider not starting / ending a course in this fashion.


Sure, it’s not ideal but it’s a lot further down my list of must not do’s….


For example, in GB&I, it isn’t sunny that much anyway…… And when it is, the sun moves…… And what happens if you head off north but then your second hole turns east? The sun doesn’t move that quickly. And what about all of those tee-times that don’t start first thing in the morning?…. And what happened to everyone loving blind shots anyway?…..


If your best routing needs a hole starting east, you route a hole starting east.

[Tim Martin]

To summarise my opinion, we all know that routing is a series of question marks and compromises. Every architect puts different emphasis on different choices. The importance of those priorities / choices makes the individual’s design DNA.


I’ve just always been amazed how high a priority so many architects seem to consider not starting / ending a course in this fashion.


Sure, it’s not ideal but it’s a lot further down my list of must not do’s….


For example, in GB&I, it isn’t sunny that much anyway…… And when it is, the sun moves…… And what happens if you head off north but then your second hole turns east? The sun doesn’t move that quickly. And what about all of those tee-times that don’t start first thing in the morning?…. And what happened to everyone loving blind shots anyway?…..


If your best routing needs a hole starting east, you route a hole starting east.

Ally-I don’t think many associate a shot as being “blind” because the sun is in their eyes.

[Charlie Goerges]

Far be it from me to say I know better than anyone about this, but I'm 100% in agreement with Ally on this one, for so many reasons. First of all, the direction of the sun varies by 23.5° over the course of the year, so first, you've got a wide angle you need to avoid if you want to keep from playing the last hole into the setting sun. But additionally, have you been able to avoid playing the 17th, 16th, 15th into the sun as well? Because in the summer, many of us are often playing one of those holes at sunset rather than the 18th and finishing up shortly after sunset, as there's still plenty of light. And all this goes for the sunrise as well. Finally, more than half the players each day won't even be encountering sunrise/sunset. Is it really worth putting that consideration above the other possible considerations? I just think it's best to do the best holes/course you can architecturally without worrying about sunset/sunrise. To me, it would be like a writer hitting the word count exactly rather than writing the best piece possible. It feels like cart before the horse. Sorry if I'm being too strident about this...

[Rob Marshall]

Wouldn’t the setting sun be out in the ocean at Pebble Beach on 18?

[Andrew Harvie]

Mackenzie's "Ideal Golf Course Design Principals" had nines returning to the clubhouse, no hill climbing, and "equally good during the winter and summer," and The Good Doctor didn't always do this, so I've always interpreted the opening hole east/closing hole west rule in the same vein. Stanley Thompson had a similar set of rules, but his five best golf courses don't return to the clubhouse after nine (St. George's was supposed to, until Home Smith moved the clubhouse to sell real estate—not the prohibition tale everyone tells!), and he sometimes had 5 par 3's and 5 par 5's, but not always.


IMO, the more constraints one puts on the site or project, the less likely it will end up the best it can possibly be. I think that probably goes without saying: if a client can give the architect the utmost freedom on a property, it will, more times than not, end up better than if there are stipulations like the nines have to return to the clubhouse or the opening hole can't face east or whatever. Imagine if all of those golf courses you listed had to avoid the sun!


If the overall quality of the golf course is improved by forgetting where the sun rises or sets versus compromising good golf holes to make it so a minor inconvenience is avoided, that's a net positive.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Andrew,


Most creative personalities will tell you that constraints can inspire creativity more than a blank canvas. 


Since my first day on gca.com, I have tried to dispel the myth of the "perfect routing" for any piece of property.  Most archies develop 2-30 prelim routings quickly, analyze them, throw some out, combine the best features or others, etc.  And yes, the owner typically is involved to at least review the pluses and minuses of both.


I recall sitting with the late Robert Dedman when he said that returning nines add about 3,000 rounds to any course.  I may have even asked him in response to a similar thread years ago.  He had similar opinions (based on operating hundreds of courses) about sun positioning. What architect will say no to one of the most successful owners ever? And ask them to willingly give up $$$ to accommodate your vision of a perfect golf course?  Short version, there just happen to be things that are more important to a golf course than some random design feature that the gca and about 10% of golfers would recognize.  And of course, if that hole is never built to some compromise, who would know it was missing to tell us that another routing would be better?


Beyond that, all design is a compromise of sorts.  I would guess, based on my experiences, that on most sites, you can work returning nines and good sun angles for opening/closing holes without compromising much in the design.  The hardest ones are when the site offers the most convenient clubhouse location somewhere on the western part of the property, when it can sometimes be impossible.  So my answer to the sun question is, "great to have, all other things being equal."

[Kyle Harris]

We had a long conversation on this in a thread a month or two ago.

Completely overplayed as a negative.

That was Ally's opinion.  Many others thought it was important.


I have been wrestling with the very question today, on a routing for a new project.  The clubhouse almost has to be on a hilltop in the south-west corner of the site, which inevitably means that one or two of the starting and finishing holes play into the sun.  [The others can play more north-south.]


It is not quite as dire as it sounds because it's a winter club, and where the sun sets varies through the season.  Right now, close to the solstice with the sun setting more SW, the closing hole is the real problem, but the sunrise in the SE is not as much a factor.  By late spring, the sunrise will be further to the NE and the tables will turn.


P.S.  Add to your list of finishing holes that play west, the 18th at the TPC at Sawgrass.  That was by choice, because the TV cameras look back to the east from behind the green.

It’s nice to get sun on the early holes in light frost situations.

[David Kelly]

Can anyone think of a personal experience playing an 18th hole into the setting sun where it caused them to misplay a shot, lose a ball or otherwise greatly diminish the hole? 

[Tom_Doak]

Can anyone think of a personal experience playing an 18th hole into the setting sun where it caused them to misplay a shot, lose a ball or otherwise greatly diminish the hole?

It sucks to play the 18th hole at Pebble Beach into the sun at the end of the day.  You are dying to play it, and you can't follow your tee shot.  The 18th at Barnbougle has the same problem . . . it was either going to be the 18th or the first 2-3 holes there.

[Tom_Doak]

Beyond that, all design is a compromise of sorts.  I would guess, based on my experiences, that on most sites, you can work returning nines and good sun angles for opening/closing holes without compromising much in the design. 

I kind of agree about the sun, but not about returning nines.  Not having to come back to the clubhouse at #9 opens up at least 4x as many routing options as having to.  I understand that a lot of courses would make more $ if they have two starting points, but then again, they might not be charging the same green fee if the course is compromised.


Luckily Mr. Dedman [fils] did not make us try to get the 9th hole at Pinehurst #10 back to the clubhouse.  He didn't want another money-maker, he wanted another rain-maker.

[Simon Barrington]

Can anyone think of a personal experience playing an 18th hole into the setting sun where it caused them to misplay a shot, lose a ball or otherwise greatly diminish the hole?

Worse than the 18th being into the setting sun, would be the 1st Hole.

As if playing matchplay (as the game was intended) and needing to go into extra holes to get a result, playing "blinded" up the 19th into the setting sun is awful.
This is the case for the 1st at my childhood home course.

I speak from experience, as someone who hates to play into the sun (regardless of which hole) and have now resorted to playing such holes with my eyes completely closed!

[Sean_A]

Can anyone think of a personal experience playing an 18th hole into the setting sun where it caused them to misplay a shot, lose a ball or otherwise greatly diminish the hole?

Yes, Sherwood Forest finishing run in winter. Very annoying. There are others, but Sherwood Forest is by far the worst example I can think of.

Ciao

[Rob Marshall]

Can anyone think of a personal experience playing an 18th hole into the setting sun where it caused them to misplay a shot, lose a ball or otherwise greatly diminish the hole?

It sucks to play the 18th hole at Pebble Beach into the sun at the end of the day.  You are dying to play it, and you can't follow your tee shot.  The 18th at Barnbougle has the same problem . . . it was either going to be the 18th or the first 2-3 holes there.

How often does that actually happen? Sun sets due west two days a year according to google. How much does it actually deviate? I have no clue, just asking. The tee shot on 18 is north west. [size=78%]https://www.google.com/search?q=Pebble+beach+map+pdf&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS859US859&oq=pebble&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg7MgYIARBFGD0yBggCEEUYOzIGCAMQRRg7MgYIBBBFGDwyEQgFEEUYORhDGLEDGIAEGIoFMgwIBhAAGEMYgAQYigUyDAgHEAAYQxiABBiKBTIPCAgQLhhDGLEDGIAEGIoFMhgICRAuGEMYrwEYxwEYsQMYgAQYigUYmAXSAQg0ODQzajBqNKgCAbACAeIDBBgBIF8&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#vhid=JqoxeguuV9FKrM&vssid=_3mpfZ9yaJ-SNwbkP7fP8QA_22[/size]

[Tom_Doak]

It sucks to play the 18th hole at Pebble Beach into the sun at the end of the day.  You are dying to play it, and you can't follow your tee shot.  The 18th at Barnbougle has the same problem . . . it was either going to be the 18th or the first 2-3 holes there.

How often does that actually happen? Sun sets due west two days a year according to google. How much does it actually deviate?

It deviates a lot more as you get further north [Scotland, Michigan] or south [Tasmania, NZ], and not at all at the equator.


I played the majority of my rounds at Pebble Beach in August many years ago, and indeed it was the tee shot on 18, playing NW, that was awful at that time of year.  For the tournament in the winter it is not so bad, the sun sets to the SW and the approach is only to the west.

[James Reader]

Can anyone think of a personal experience playing an 18th hole into the setting sun where it caused them to misplay a shot, lose a ball or otherwise greatly diminish the hole?

Yes, Sherwood Forest finishing run in winter. Very annoying. There are others, but Sherwood Forest is by far the worst example I can think of.

Ciao

And yet, as I’ve said on here before, the 17th and 18th at Sherwood actually play to the south of south west.


Not disputing Sean’s point that this can be close to the direction of the setting sun in December and January (c.230 degrees, where 225 degrees is south west) but it’s not close to it for the majority of the year, and, having been a member for over 40 years, I’ve never thought of it as a particular problem. To avoid the issue completely at GB&I latitudes you’re actually looking at considering an arc of over 90 degrees, not just ‘westerly’. And spare a thought for the architect of Lofoten, where the sun sets (when it does at all) anywhere between almost due north and due south at different times of the year.


One of the lessons here is that you need to come and play Sherwood outside the middle of winter, Sean!

[Thomas Dai]

TV seems to like holes that play into the sun. That way a camera positioned behind the green gets a good angle. The 18th at Pebble Beach although not designed for this reason would be an example.


Another aspect, as mentioned by Kyle above, is early morning frost. The inability of the early morning sun to clear any frost or dew or mist present being I believe one of the reasons for switching around the 2-nines at ANGC.


Anyone playing a yellow ball or one of the balls with a wide stripe or checkered marking notice a difference in the ease of finding them when playing into the sun in comparison to the more commonly used white ball?


Atb


Atb

[Niall C]

Mackenzie's "Ideal Golf Course Design Principals" had nines returning to the clubhouse, no hill climbing, and "equally good during the winter and summer," and The Good Doctor didn't always do this, so I've always interpreted the opening hole east/closing hole west rule in the same vein.

Andrew


I believe MacKenzie later regretted having published those design principles because people took them as gospel and anything contrary to them was simply wrong. I'm fairly sure he wrote about it but could be wrong.


Niall

[Niall C]

Most creative personalities will tell you that constraints can inspire creativity more than a blank canvas. 

Jeff


I'd hesitate to say I have a creative personality but none the less I'd say you were spot on with the above comment.


Niall

[Quinn Thompson]

Half of the people can be in part of the sun part of the time,
And some do the people can be in all of the sun all of the time,
But all of the people can’t be in all of the sun all of the time.
I think Abraham Lincoln said that.

borrowed and tweaked from Bob Dylan’s “Talking World War III blues”.


* all lessons in reason, and golf architecture, inevitably trace their way back to a kid from a little Minnesota town…

Meanwhile, Jeff’s quote on constraints and creativity is a beut: here’s two tubes of paint and a pair of chopsticks, now go ahead and paint my dog - on this dirty napkin…

[Jeff_Brauer]

Can anyone think of a personal experience playing an 18th hole into the setting sun where it caused them to misplay a shot, lose a ball or otherwise greatly diminish the hole? 

Palatine Hills, the course my HS golf team used, often after school for practices and meets, had the 18th facing NNW on the tee shot and NW on the approach.  It was always a problem.

It makes me wonder if there would be more of a difference in a course you would play every day vs. PB or something that for most is a once in a lifetime experience, especially on a photogenic hole like 18.