Is there a downside to Golf Club Atlas for you?

[Carl Johnson]

In my case I've learned so much from the rest of you that, even given the expected and natural differences of opinion, I'm disappointed when courses don't measure up to what they should be or could be. I see deficiencies, which may just be my nature. On the other hand, the pluses do far outweigh this minus.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Frankly, I probably should never post here as someone in the industry.  It is a low percentage play, at best. 


I am always surprised at how many folks in the biz will come up to me at trade shows, or whatever and say they appreciate my honesty.....and ability to take a punch, lol.

[Ally Mcintosh]

In my case I've learned so much from the rest of you that, even given the expected and natural differences of opinion, I'm disappointed when courses don't measure up to what they should be or could be. I see deficiencies, which may just be my nature. On the other hand, the pluses do far outweigh this minus.

Carl,


For about 8 years after getting in to the business, I found myself over-analysing golf courses and enjoying the game less.


So now, outside when I am actually working, I deliberately make GCA mean less. I’ll keep any analysing from when I’m long gone from the course.

[Niall C]

In my case I've learned so much from the rest of you that, even given the expected and natural differences of opinion, I'm disappointed when courses don't measure up to what they should be or could be. I see deficiencies, which may just be my nature. On the other hand, the pluses do far outweigh this minus.

Carl


My attitude has long been judge the high-ranking courses and just enjoy the rest. I'm rarely disappointed in the lesser courses partly because my expectations aren't that high going in, and partly because I'm looking for the good points and rarely does a course have no redeeming features. As for the top courses, even if they don't live up to their rep, they will still be worth playing and any things you don't like just gives you ammunition to come on here and bump your gums about it. You might call that a win win situation.


Niall

[Tom_Doak]

Frankly, I probably should never post here as someone in the industry.  It is a low percentage play, at best. 

I am always surprised at how many folks in the biz will come up to me at trade shows, or whatever and say they appreciate my honesty.....and ability to take a punch, lol.

I have so many questions on this post:


1. Do other architects only like to interact with the actual golfers in social settings where no one will offer anything but vague polite praise?  I rarely get good feedback one on one from a stranger.


2.  How many people in “the industry” [architecture, or golf in general] think they should just keep their head down and go along to get along?

[David_Tepper]

Seeing threads about rakes in bunkers.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I get bored more easily now if a course doesn't give me options off the tee or into the green. The course where I live was designed by Ed Ault, one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. My course is just hit the fairway and hit the green. The course requires no thought. I play nine in the evenings and have to make up games to keep me interested.

[Kalen Braley]

Frankly, I probably should never post here as someone in the industry.  It is a low percentage play, at best. 


I am always surprised at how many folks in the biz will come up to me at trade shows, or whatever and say they appreciate my honesty.....and ability to take a punch, lol.

Jeff,


I very much appreciate that you and others with first hand experience post here and have spirited convos on various topics.  I wish I had more to contribute to GCA and in small part live vicariously thru you guys. 

[Thomas Dai]

I get bored more easily now if a course doesn't give me options off the tee or into the green. The course where I live was designed by Ed Ault, one of the nicest guys you could ever meet. My course is just hit the fairway and hit the green. The course requires no thought. I play nine in the evenings and have to make up games to keep me interested.

Me too. More and more I play from different tees and hit shots with clubs that aren’t ideal or conventionally optimum for the circumstances plus I play more often with clubs from a previous era or eras. Less boredom, more interest, more thought provoking challenge.
It’s probably related to familiarity breeds contempt.
As to the thread title, not really. GCA contains a huge amount of knowledge, has been a great way to meet with like minded folks and being able to converse directly with leading figures ‘in the business’ is terrific and greatly appreciated so a big thanks to them for their continuing involvement. Long live GCA and thanks to Ran and Co for founding it in the first instance and keeping it going over the years.
Atb

[John Kavanaugh]

Embracing failure opens a porthole to joy.

[Ira Fishman]

We have only so much time and budget for travel. I tend to be less willing to try a course that trusted posters on here have not recommended or even mentioned. That limits my exposure to courses I might like.

[Joe Zucker]

In my case I've learned so much from the rest of you that, even given the expected and natural differences of opinion, I'm disappointed when courses don't measure up to what they should be or could be. I see deficiencies, which may just be my nature. On the other hand, the pluses do far outweigh this minus.

For awhile, there were times when I could see a course was "better" than another from an architectural point of view and not like it more.  For example, I can see that Royal Dornoch is a "better" course than Nairn, but I just love Nairn. If I had to choose one to play tomorrow, it would be Nairn.  This was confusing to me and seemed like some sort of internal contradiction, since I had the ability to see what was so great about Dornoch.


Now I am more comfortable with internal contradictions, as Walt Whitman said long ago "I contain multitudes".

[Peter Sayegh]

Yes.
I've grown envious of the courses many here have played.

[Tim_Weiman]

Frankly, I probably should never post here as someone in the industry.  It is a low percentage play, at best. 


I am always surprised at how many folks in the biz will come up to me at trade shows, or whatever and say they appreciate my honesty.....and ability to take a punch, lol.

Jeff,


I disagree. It would be better if more industry folks posted, but I understand why they don’t.


It does take courage for people who actually make a living in the golf business.


Tim

[MCirba]

The fact that many architects and others in the industry are wary of posting here is the only downside I see.   


I'm also very thankful for those with the cuyones to still participate as I've been here long enough to see too many architects get flamed and understandably run for the door.  Their professional experiences help temper our somewhat naive idealism and dogmatic groupthink of what constitutes real world architecture in the 21st century.


I still vividly recall a group of us starry-eyed, enthusiastic neophytes meeting with Ron Prichard at a tavern after our first winter walkthrough of the original routing of Cobbs Creek.  Paraphrasing Ron, he said to us, "I'm glad you know it all's on GolfClubAtlas are doing this...now you'll get to see how things happen in the real world."   


That was March 2008.

[Mike_Young]

   NO.

[Andrew Harvie]

Frankly, I probably should never post here as someone in the industry.  It is a low percentage play, at best. 


I am always surprised at how many folks in the biz will come up to me at trade shows, or whatever and say they appreciate my honesty.....and ability to take a punch, lol.

I'm struggling to remember who exactly said this, but I was talking to an architect up in Canada and he mentioned how he's gotten interviews and jobs off this discussion group. I guess it depends on the person, but I think that's worth whatever the backlash might be as an architect posting in here, if there is any. In my view, it's a marketing tool depending on how someone uses it, but not everyone does that and I'm certainly not advocating for people turning this into their own stream of consciousness to advance their own career.


IMO, I haven't seen much downside of GCA or furthering my education on the subject much. The one consequence, perhaps, is being overly critical of golf courses, but on the flip side, I think I've learned to appreciate golf courses or holes others might glance over. I view a Doak 7-8 that could be a 9 with a more critical lens than if I didn't really learn about architecture, but on the inverse, I've also learned to appreciate a rugged 4 or 5 more than my friends who aren't as invested in the subject.

[Mark_Fine]

I have been posting on GCAtlas since close to when it was founded. There are many times when I wonder why I still bother to engage and spend the time to offer my thoughts etc.  Part of what keeps me going is all the positive side comments and discussions, etc that result from participating. But to be honest, if you are not part of the chosen few or are trying as I did 20 years ago to get in this business in an unconventional way, you need a thick skin and have to deal with a lot of negatives and naysayers not only on this site but in the GCA business in general. Some will never accept you and sadly many in the industry avoid this site and it is our loss. That is probably the biggest negative about GCAtlas but the pros still outweigh the cons. 

[Phil Burr]

Too many chest-thumping threads that do not provoke any conversation of architecture.  2024 eclectic hole compilations.  Unless you’re one of the few who’s willing to comment on what they liked about each one of your 18, it’s worthless.  Courses I played in 2024 and/or those I will play in 2025.  Who cares, and if I did contribute I could pull a list of the top 25 in the world and say I played all of them last year.  It just gets hard to believe that nearly every poster to those threads has CPC, Pebble, LACC, PV, NGLA, Shinnecock Hills, Seminole, TOC, Muirfield, Berwick, ANGC, Dornoch, Sand Hills, Chicago, Oalmost, Merion, Crystal Downs & Royal Melbourne on their list, plus another five in New Zealand.  You’re not fooling the rest of us.

[Simon Barrington]

Too many chest-thumping threads that do not provoke any conversation of architecture.  2024 eclectic hole compilations.  Unless you’re one of the few who’s willing to comment on what they liked about each one of your 18, it’s worthless.  Courses I played in 2024 and/or those I will play in 2025.  Who cares, and if I did contribute I could pull a list of the top 25 in the world and say I played all of them last year.  It just gets hard to believe that nearly every poster to those threads has CPC, Pebble, LACC, PV, NGLA, Shinnecock Hills, Seminole, TOC, Muirfield, Berwick, ANGC, Dornoch, Sand Hills, Chicago, Oalmost, Merion, Crystal Downs & Royal Melbourne on their list, plus another five in New Zealand.  You’re not fooling the rest of us.

I guess there will always be a tendency to look like humble bragging in some lists, but it is an extremely engaged group on here and some will have played an astonishing level of courses in a year because they are on such a mission. So is not surprising to me that some lists are enviably impressive (I dream of such invitations!)

What I like about such Eclectic lists/posts is the unusual and less-lauded examples of genuinely interesting architecture, at under the radar courses off the beaten track. (Sean & others course reviews are similar sources of places to visit, features that interest etc. Photos are essential in that)


What I don't like is when things on here are challenged without evidence or reasonable respectful debate.

Sometimes this gets too personal too quickly, usually justified by the culprit(s) claiming they are merely "trying to create debate" etc. that's just lazy and dismissive.

Everyone can have an opinion, but if we all keep the level of respect higher on here, then we might actually attract and encourage more industry participants to get involved. This seems to be a desire, from this thread.

The creative process doesn't have to be adversarially challenged, and understanding the why on some work might jar (to a group who are really well-versed) may cause pause for thought and learning (by practitioners). The feedback loop could be beneficial.

There was a recent thread about constructive debate occurring within (but not outside, by policy) ASGCA (& possibly EIGCA) meetings, I would suggest that frustrates many on here who would like that to be more open.

But if this DB doesn't debate such things respectfully, why would/should the professionals open the floor to such opportunities.

[Phil Young]

I don't believe that there is a downside to Golf Club Atlas, the proof of it being in a single Topic for Discussion. It was started on February 1st, 2010 by Ed Oden. 14 years, 1,648 replies and 401,001 views later, Ed's "Compilation of Routing Maps, Plans and Architectural Drawings," all freely given by far too many members to count, all as a permanent means of research help to any and all who want to better understand the creative history of specific golf courses is a gift to more than just the membership, it is a treasure for any and all who have a passion for understanding the work of all golf course architects.
      I'm sure that Ed never began this discussion with the idea that it would still being added to all these years later, as Sven Nilson did 2 days ago on December 12th followed by a comment on it by Mike Cirba.
      Golf Club Atlas provides a unique place for any and all to share and learn, discuss and debate both as gentleman and occasionally argumentative among all who are passsionate about the architecture of the game. To me, there is no downside to that... 

[Matthew Rose]

Yeah, it's a sober reminder of how lame the golf courses I usually play are 

[Mark_Fine]

Simon,
That thread you were referring to is a good example of why so many in the industry shy away from contributing on this site.  Lots of architects peruse GCAtlas from time to time and when they see comments that are just disparaging and frankly nasty especially from someone with a platform who unfortunately only thinks there are a handful of architects that can do anything worth looking at, it just confirms to people in the industry why they should stay away from participating.  Why deal with the abuse.  Sad.

[Simon Barrington]

Simon,
That thread you were referring to is a good example of why so many in the industry shy away from contributing on this site.  Lots of architects peruse GCAtlas from time to time and when they see comments that are just disparaging and frankly nasty especially from someone with a platform who unfortunately only thinks there are a handful of architects that can do anything worth looking at, it just confirms to people in the industry why they should stay away from participating.  Why deal with the abuse.  Sad.

I was referring generally, but the case you cite is far from unique.

Also, it's not always GCAs who get on the wrong side of some very strident opinions, the point applies to all on here.

Informed and respectful debate (IMHO) should be the base requirement of being able to post, but we certainly don't all have to agree.

[Mike_Young]

Too many chest-thumping threads that do not provoke any conversation of architecture.  2024 eclectic hole compilations.  Unless you’re one of the few who’s willing to comment on what they liked about each one of your 18, it’s worthless.  Courses I played in 2024 and/or those I will play in 2025.  Who cares, and if I did contribute I could pull a list of the top 25 in the world and say I played all of them last year.  It just gets hard to believe that nearly every poster to those threads has CPC, Pebble, LACC, PV, NGLA, Shinnecock Hills, Seminole, TOC, Muirfield, Berwick, ANGC, Dornoch, Sand Hills, Chicago, Oalmost, Merion, Crystal Downs & Royal Melbourne on their list, plus another five in New Zealand.  You’re not fooling the rest of us.

There was a recent thread about constructive debate occurring within (but not outside, by policy) ASGCA (& possibly EIGCA) meetings, I would suggest that frustrates many on here who would like that to be more open. 

But if this DB doesn't debate such things respectfully, why would/should the professionals open the floor to such opportunities.

Simon,Explain this a little further.  Have you ever seen a beauty pageant where all the participants smile and tell the other how beautiful they are and how they hope they win?  Policy with in fraternities is nothing more than wording to make something sound more "ethical".  Do you give beauty pageants credibility?  It's all opinion and a golf course debate should begin with this quote from Bradley Cooper in A Star is Born "“Music is essentially 12 notes between any octave...Twelve notes, and the octave repeats. It’s the same story told over and over, forever. All any artist can offer the world is how they see those 12 notes. That’s it.” But replace the word notes with the word "holes" and replace the digit "12 with 18 in most cases. and replace the word Music with "golf course".  That's as simple as it gets...cheers...
Cheers...