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The Lido Course Profile Now Live!
Matt Schoolfield:
Very nice write up
--- Quote from: Andrew Harvie on December 06, 2024, 11:01:32 AM ---Anyways, I won't string this along because the course profile is a 19-minute read time. But if you've played Lido, what was your general takeaways and thoughts?
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I was lucky enough to play in the hickory tournament this year, so I managed to get around a few times.
--- Quote ---The inconspicuous nature of the Biarritz from the tee hides much of the swale, once again showcasing how Lido is the ultimate hole course that rewards multiple rounds and a home field advantage
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I think this is a very good thing to highlight, and is almost a theme for the course. There is a ton of stuff happening on most of the holes, and much of it is blind. So much so, that there are even hazards that left me scratching my head: what is the point of the principals nose bunker on #2? There are a few out-of-play bunkers on #11 and #17. I assume there is a sense of hit-and-hope that is built into the course, which brings me to my next thought:
--- Quote ---Truthfully, much of Lido is hard. Even in 1922, Bernard Darwin, arguably the finest golf writer at the time, identified Lido as being unusually difficult.
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Match play doesn't care if the course is easy or hard. In fact, match play is more interesting when the course is hard, because it leaves players unsure of victory, even when their opponents are in a bunker off the tee. I see the Lido as a paragon of match play course design, but for stroke play, it's a bit of a slog. I'd recommend playing a match there if you can.
--- Quote ---Could this be the most severe and demanding punchbowl in the Macdonald/Raynor catalogue? There is a strong argument for it.
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My finest moment that weekend was managing a birdie on Punchbowl in one of the rounds. I hit a smashed fade off the tee caught the contour and rolled out down toward the water, then a carving draw that just curled over the right side of the bunker and disappeared. I had no idea whether I was on the green or down the hill, but as I came over the hill, it was only a tester of a putt from the hole. Really something special, and arguably the intended result of a punchbowl design.
--- Quote ---The severity of the bunkering at Lido is certainly evident on the final tee shot of the day. Missing in this bunker provides a sour taste in one’s mouth coming home!
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This is clear. The intensity of the bunkering is almost surreal to the point that I was seeking out old photos of the course to see if it could have possibly been that severe when it was originally constructed, and so far I've found no reason to doubt it. Really intense, and is an especially rude awakening if you end up in the exceptionally deep bunkers behind the first green like I did.
--- Quote ---Interestingly, the 18th green at Lido is located near the 9th tee… some 410 yards from the clubhouse! Without question an unusual quirk of the golf course, though Macdonald prioritizing the quality of the golf holes in exchange for an unusual walk following the round’s completion is evident that the property’s maximum potential was fulfilled.
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I think this may have something to do with the awkward position between the location of the hotel overlooking the beach (next to the 8th tee), with the clubhouse being adjacent to the highway. Since the 18th green is a short walk from the hotel, I suspect that the routing trades a walk at the end of the round for a walk at the beginning. The ninth hole being the linchpin that can't be swapped for the first or second, without making the turn impossible. I also think it's entirely reasonable to keep the clubhouse far enough away from the beach so as to not waste any of the most valuable property.
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I think the course is exceptional, and I found myself having the most fun on holes that I didn't even think about much before arriving (notably the Cape hole and Alps). I love the concept of infinite subtlety that exists there, and smattering a bit of randomness and trouble basically everywhere really achieves that nicely. I only wish the wind had been whipping that weekend to make it all the more intense. I want to say thanks to all the members and staff there for being so gracious and welcoming to the rag tag bunch of architecture nerds, because I really got to have some genuinely insightful discussions during each round and afterward.
PCCraig:
--- Quote from: Tim Gavrich on December 06, 2024, 08:27:20 PM ---The best American golf course I played this year for sure, and pretty close even to the two best courses I saw overseas - County Down and Portrush
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Come on...................
Tom_Doak:
--- Quote from: Matt Schoolfield on December 08, 2024, 02:10:23 PM ---
--- Quote ---Truthfully, much of Lido is hard. Even in 1922, Bernard Darwin, arguably the finest golf writer at the time, identified Lido as being unusually difficult.
--- End quote ---
Match play doesn't care if the course is easy or hard. In fact, match play is more interesting when the course is hard, because it leaves players unsure of victory, even when their opponents are in a bunker off the tee. I see the Lido as a paragon of match play course design, but for stroke play, it's a bit of a slog. I'd recommend playing a match there if you can.
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This is a very good point and one that I haven't thought to bring up before. It wasn't my job there to decide if the course was too hard or too easy . . . it was my job to re-create Macdonald's course, although we did make room for some more back tees in the process.
I personally have played Lido about ten rounds now and NONE OF THEM were at stroke play. I've always played matches -- foursomes a couple of times, four-balls or singles the rest.
When someone here earlier this year was questioning how difficult some of the approach shots were, and how it was almost impossible to get within 30 feet on certain holes, they were complaining from the perspective of stroke play. It never occurred to me to ask them if they could get closer than their opponent? Lido was not built to be played against par.
Sean_A:
Viewing the photos the course looks difficult…and intriguing.
I never understood the matchplay/strokeplay divide. Those are ways to keep score. How does this alter the course?
Ciao
Simon Barrington:
--- Quote from: Sean_A on December 09, 2024, 03:50:31 AM ---Viewing the photos the course looks difficult…and intriguing.
I never understood the matchplay/strokeplay divide. Those are ways to keep score. How does this alter the course?
Ciao
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It's a difference in perception that feeds into intent, and for design the requirements of the bulk of customers which architects absorb over time.
IMHO it is their role to challenge the homogeniety and hold the line to keep the excitement and interest up.
To save the golfers from themselves and the ubiquity of blandness.
If you take two roughly similar golfers/kids out onto a "Himalayas" Putting green and say you can putt to any hole/place/target, if playing Matchplay (where the winner of the previous hole, chooses the next) they tend to choose the most challenging next hole.
This maximises excitement, fun, variety, and difficulty as they try to seperate themselves one-on-one hole-by-hole. If they lose a hole so what, they can win the next, consequences of failure are diminished. The excitement grows the closer one gets to a conclusion
Not forgetting many such games, when scaled up across free-routing linksland by the first golfers, usually included an aspect of gambling, the essence of chance and an arrogant belief that one could do better than the other. (That's why all these short courses and putting greens at resorts are getting so much profile and use these days)
But, if playing with a card & pencil to minimise ones score across all holes, their choices tend to become much more prosaic and homogenised, betting on their consistency and attempting to reduce the influence of chance. Failure carries forward, a millstone. Excitement only grows if the protagonists (who may even be in different groups) are known to be close, essentially reverting the challenge to matchplay, that is when we get the best events ("Duel in The Sun", Mickleson v Stenson @ Troon etc.).
The advent of strokeplay, and it's incredible growth (initiated by the simple desire to measure golfers' standard between clubs, and not within where Matchplay was originally dominant) changed the way golfers perceived the game and golf holes, and designers have had to accomodate that reduction of chance and excitement.
Matchplay enables the (childlike) creativity to come out in design, producing more exciting (aka "Sporting") golf holes.
Dialling it up if you like.
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