Can a wet course be fun, can it be good?

[Jerry Kluger]

I know that it is generally accepted that courses should play firm and fast to be at their best and how the architect viewed them to play when the course was being designed but what happens if that is not the case?  I have always found that I just didn't enjoy the game nearly as much if a course was soft and I wound up playing from the wrong tees to have any chance of having a decent round with respect to my enjoyment and score.  Playing Southern Pines and Mid Pines this past week this condition made me recognize this even more as I have played both before and really enjoyed them when they were playing firm and fast. By no means am I trying to say that they are bad courses as they had been recently overseeded and while the rye grass is growing in the courses play soft because of the watering but in a few weeks they will be back to playing firm and fast.


But let's get to the issue that I am focused on, namely, what if a course always played soft?  I cannot imagine wanting to play it very often, if at all after one visit, but is that just me or is the course just not that good no matter how good the architecture is - the conditioning ruins it. 

[Mark_Fine]

If we only played courses when they were in their pristine/ideal condition we would hardly ever play golf. I recall playing Royal St. George’s one time and standing on the first tee in 70 degree sunny weather with not a breath of wind.  I half jokingly said to my local playing partner, I can’t play a links course in this kind of benign weather.  He laughed at me and said hit the ball. Three holes later the temperature had dropped 25 degrees and we had sideways rain and hail, after that the rain stopped but we had overcast with heavy wind and then the sun came out and hardly a breeze for the last part of the round.  Golf is about dealing with the conditions given to you and hopefully having fun with it.   If not, take up a different indoor sport 


Note: Poor maintenance is another matter (e.g. firm greens with soft approaches) but even that is something we can learn to deal with until the practice it is corrected. 


I just can’t imagine someone showing up at my course for example after it rained the night before making everything soft and hearing them say I think I’m going to pass on playing today 

[Charlie Goerges]

I just can’t imagine someone showing up at my course for example after it rained the night before making everything soft and hearing them say I think I’m going to pass on playing today 

I don't think that is the type of situation being referenced here (I could be wrong). It's when the course is kept very wet in the warm-weather months in order to keep the turf emerald green that is the problem. In those situations, then even a very light rain starts causing an unpleasant squishiness.


I don't blame the superintendent in most of those cases as I'm sure the directive is coming down to keep the course green regardless of the weather.

[MCirba]

Having just played golf at three courses in Jamaica during an unusually heavy rainy season followed by a tropical depression I would comment that limited roll rounds are limited by definition.   


My bias is towards courses where the fun begins once the ball lands, thus my enjoyment is/was commensurately reduced.  Tropical rain conditions at least provide an excuse I can rationalize for temporary conditions.   It's the places where it hasn't rained in a week or so and I see ball marks in the fairway that become annoying.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Anything can be fun/good when you’re playing a match with friends.

[Jerry Kluger]

But if a course is kept soft and moist can it be fun, can it be good?  Yes, it can be fun playing with friends but if it became your go to course would you be enthusiastic about playing it? Are there clubs you know of that keep the conditions soft and how is it being received by the public or its members?

[Matt Schoolfield]

Yes, it can be fun playing with friends but if it became your go to course would you be enthusiastic about playing it?

In a match with friends, yes, always. I obviously prefer firm and fast conditions (as long as the green isn’t super fast).

I like high-end beer too, but asking if I can’t enjoy a Bud Light is basically asking if I’ve become so much of a beer snob that I’ve lost perspective. I’m just not that guy.

[Craig Sweet]

I'm pretty sure Old Works was designed to play firm and fast but it has been maintained anyway but that over the years.  I think it's over watered. The current supper might say it doesn't drain because of how it was constructed over a Super Fund site.  But you can be on the course at noon on a dry, windy day and your cart wheels will kick up water, and the approaches will be soggy.  To me that is excessively wet.  Do the regular passholders complain? I doubt it. Do the thousands of tourist complain? Usually not about that.

[Brett Meyer]

I agree that most courses are better when they're firm and fast and I can think of many examples. One course that has never played firm and fast in my experience and could desperately use to is the Gailes in Michigan. It's one of the few early faux-links-style courses that actually got a lot of the details right. But it's tee-to-green bentgrass and doesn't play like a links at all. If it had the Loop's turf, it'd still probably be considered one of the best courses in Michigan.

But I'll play devil's advocate and raise the opposite issue because I think I've seen a few cases lately: courses that are better when they're at least a bit soft. I always suspected this about Rye because several fairways and greens are quite narrow with fall-offs to the side and the wind is usually blowing--although I haven't played it in enough different conditions to say for sure.

The two that I've seen lately that I think fit the bill are Ozark National and the Highland Course at Primland. And that's because both essentially play across mountain ridges, with steep drop-offs to the sides of the holes. On sites like these, it's probably best if the course is playing a bit softer.

There's plenty of width at Ozark National, but there's also pretty heavy slope in almost every fairway and the low side either runs into junk or off a cliff's edge. On a few holes (7 and 9), you have blind shots and the cliff cuts further into the hole than you'd expect. None of this was an issue for me because it rained about 5 inches in the two days before I played and despite the course playing along ridges, there was standing water in every fairway.

Maybe the Zoysia fairways would help slow things down when it's dryer. But I had the feeling that the course might have been more manageable under these wet conditions. It's a very good course and it was no small feat to build a walkable course there, but you don't want to get the ball rolling too much on terrain like this. It also might have helped if contrary to the current norm of short grass everywhere, there were a little more traditional rough next to the fairways and greens so that the ball isn't always rolling away.

Same for the Highland Course at Primland, although here I'm not sure there's enough room even if it is soft. There are several instances where you can hit the green and have it kick off line down the mountain. If you've seen this course, you know what a crazy site it is and how the architects accomplished something impressive in routing a coherent 18 hole golf course here. But they saved a few too many trees and didn't leave enough space for balls to roll on many holes, which will cause many to blow through a good chunk of their yearly golf ball budget. This course certainly wouldn't be better if it were firm and fast.

[Matt_Cohn]

It makes sense that some mountain-type courses might fit the bill, where severe slopes would otherwise get out of hand.


Then there are courses in places like Singapore in Malaysia that get so much rain that they will always be soft. But it doesn’t seem like they’re better that way; it’s just what they are.

[Tom_Doak]

I played Sweetens Cove on a winter day after several rains; the water table was up to where a foot of water was standing in some of the low areas.  Most of it was okay, because the course is generally designed to play through the air.  However, I was bummed when I hit a bad chip at the 8th [I think that's the right hole #, I had to skip around a bit to avoid the eightsome in front of me], it didn't get up the big slope in the green, and it rolled off the green into a foot of water in the depression!

[Thomas Dai]

Wet and soggy is horrible. Not just playing shots but the walking too. And that’s before ongoing course maintenance activities are considered.
Particularly when it comes to inland golf drainage, drainage and more drainage please.
And less damn trees coz their pesky roots clog-up drains and ditches as do their fallen leaves and less brush and scrub too coz they prevent drying wind and air circulation.
Atb

[Mark Mammel]

I think good is in the eye of the beholder, and depends on the circumstances around that round. In general, I think playing a wet course- very wet- isn't as much fun and makes it harder to hit shots that use the design features of the course. That said, I first played Pasatiempo in 1988 or 89 while on a business trip to the Monterey Peninsula. I was mid-thirties, had never seen the course, and was beside myself with excitement for the MacKenzie masgterpeice- especially the 16th hole, which I had read was his favorite par 4. I was with 2 younger associates, both golfers. As we drove from the San Jose airport to Santa Cruz, it was pouring. We had a tee time. When we got there, it was still coming down in buckets so we went to the wharf for a beer and some calimari. The rain stopped. My colleagues would have been happy to go to the hotel, but were willing to suffer my wild anticipation as we drove back to the club. The sun was out, and we went into the shop. Needless to say, there were no other cars in the lot. I asked the pro if we could play, explaining we had come from Minnesota for just a couple of days. He gave me the look that let me know he understood. Looking outside, he said "You want to play? Have at it." I got out my credit card, and he waved it away and just said "Have fun." The drainage was pretty good there, but you all know what it's like in those conditions! There was no possibility of greens in regulation other than the par 3s. But I loved it.

[Steve Salmen]

Lee Trevino credited a soft Merion for allowing him to hold the greens in his playoff against Nicklaus in 1971.

[Tom_Doak]

I first played Pasatiempo in 1988 or 89 while on a business trip to the Monterey Peninsula. I was mid-thirties, had never seen the course, and was beside myself with excitement for the MacKenzie masgterpeice- especially the 16th hole, which I had read was his favorite par 4. I was with 2 younger associates, both golfers. As we drove from the San Jose airport to Santa Cruz, it was pouring. We had a tee time. When we got there, it was still coming down in buckets so we went to the wharf for a beer and some calimari. The rain stopped. My colleagues would have been happy to go to the hotel, but were willing to suffer my wild anticipation as we drove back to the club. The sun was out, and we went into the shop. Needless to say, there were no other cars in the lot. I asked the pro if we could play, explaining we had come from Minnesota for just a couple of days. He gave me the look that let me know he understood. Looking outside, he said "You want to play? Have at it." I got out my credit card, and he waved it away and just said "Have fun." The drainage was pretty good there, but you all know what it's like in those conditions! There was no possibility of greens in regulation other than the par 3s. But I loved it.

Pasatiempo has 300 feet of elevation change from top to bottom.  It ought to drain okay, even as committed as they used to be to overwatering it to keep the poa annua alive.

[Cal Seifert]

The wettest course I ever played was Charleston Muni two years ago in February. Every step was a splash of water. I still had a great time and was glad to see the course and the fun Raynor-esque holes. I recall hearing they raised up portions of the property during the renovation. I cannot imagine if it sat any lower.

[Craig Disher]

Isn't the design intent all that matters? When a course is designed with aerial approaches to greens or forced carries, soft (wet?) conditions are a help, right? At least the ball won't roll into a pesky bunker. If the course allows or encourages a ground game, wet works against the player and can be pretty frustrating. When an owner or board prioritizes greenness as the prime goal for the superintendent, all is lost.
BTW, Rye is wet for only the hour after a torrential rain storm. The irrigation heads in the fairways are there only to keep the grass alive in the event of a severe drought.

[Mark_Fine]

Craig,
Some here don’t believe it is possible to figure out or even make an educated guess about what was the “design intent”     So how can that matter if we don’t know what it was?

[Craig Sweet]

Mark...there are clues...

[Thomas Dai]

Wet course?
No thanks.
atb

[Carl Johnson]

Each to his own, of course, but I hate wet courses for a number of reasons and prefer firm and fast, keeping the grass cut extremely short and keeping it dry.  This seems to work out great with Bermuda grass, which is what we have.

[Tommy Williamsen]

It's all golf in one form or another. Courses can be too wet or too firm. A couple of years ago, I played a top-ten course and could not keep the ball on the green. Most holes would not allow a run-up shot, so I had to hit it through the air.

[cary lichtenstein]

I've played alot of wet courses here and in Ireland and Scotland. Biggest problems is with shoes. It ruins your shoes. Makes walking difficult, gives you calases

[archie_struthers]

Golf course might be well designed but if the maintenance meld is skewed it’s skewed for the player and frustrating for the architect.


The angles that make it fun are diminished and strategy becomes far less important than raw distance.


Not so good

[Jeff Schley]

I dislike playing on sloshy conditions quite a bit.  Mud everywhere is no fun.  Although expensive isn't sand capping the solution?  Usga spec greens.