6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours

[Jason_Bernardon]

I just finished listening to the latest Firm & Fast Golf podcast where Mike Clayton referenced a quote from Ran that more focus should be paid towards courses around 6,000 yards, test all 14 clubs in the bag and take 3 hours to play (this last figure is most important to me).


I know why golf lost its way over the years, but is there a path that can get us back to this sweet spot? In other words, how many more Sedge Valleys will be required before this type of course is not just a novelty but a norm?

[Brian Finn]

Aren't there many classic courses that would essentially fit if you played from the "correct" (often original) tees?

[Peter Sayegh]

Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.

[Tim Martin]

Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.

Peter-I would put Franklin Park in Boston on the “poster child” list as well. George Wright seems to steal all the accolades as the city’s go to play but FP fits Ran’s requirement and is a blast. A hole to note is the par four 12th that I would consider one of the best in the area from either the private or public course stable.

[Simon Barrington]

Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.

Sedge Valley is so important to this concept getting any traction in the US.
It is Tom Doak doing as Pete Dye is often cited as doing, an about face to recent mega scale projects and a welcome change in direction.

I hope it doesn't just end up as a design curiosity, albeit a great one as is the current status of The Loop.
But it is so great Tom keeps trying to find alternative concepts, and the developers who embrace these.
(I'd include Brian & Blake's Kids Course at Old Barnwell in this "movement" too, perhpas "New Barnwell" may reinforce the concept when it comes along?)

Brian's point is correct, there is a 6000yd or less course hidden within every longer course if shorter tees are available and desired, this is great especially in winter. Clubs can embrace this by adding events or competitions that force/encourage play from forward tees (perhaps with reduced no.s of clubs as well to encourage walking and creativity in shot making)

But, the best version of these are designed as such, including Formby Ladies (notably without a review on here) and Sunningdale Heath (nee Ladies)
See:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67423.msg1611407/topicseen.html#msg1611407

Cheers

[Ben Stephens]

Clayts


Would it be better if 14 clubs were reduced to 10 and everyone carries their bag.


Less clubs would bring back more interesting shotmaking


Cheers
Ben

[Ian Mackenzie]

Played Sedge in October in an annual event that pits the best golfers at our club against the caddies, pros and resort managers at SV, now in its 7th or 8th year. This year it was 1 round at Sedge, 1 round on Sandbox and 1 round at Lido.


(This year, we were massacred...;-)


But, we played a lot of golf with some of the best caddies there and they said that Sedge can serve up some long-ass rounds of 4:30-5:00 hours.


There are two "choke points" on the course:


On the front 9, there is a par 3 (5th), then a drivable par 4 followed by another par 3 then a long par 3. They say that it really gets backed up when groups search for balls in tall grass and every one seems to think they can get home on the par 4.


Then on the back, hole 11 is a reachahble par 5 (driver 5 iron for me) followed by a very reachable par 4 but with trouble everywhere then followed by a tricky par 3 with a massive green where 3-putting is the norm.


My point is that yardage alone may not reduce pace of play.
As this is a topic we have debated for years, I still default to the two things that can be decrease the horrendous pace of play now common at places like Sand Valley.


1. Ready golf
2. Having a pre-shot routine that is under 20 seconds.


(#. That and please limit your alcohol intake....;-)

[Sean_A]

Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.

Sedge Valley is so important to this concept getting any traction in the US.
It is Tom Doak doing as Pete Dye is often cited as doing, an about face to recent mega scale projects and a welcome change in direction.

I hope it doesn't just end up as a design curiosity, albeit a great one as is the current status of The Loop.
But it is so great Tom keeps trying to find alternative concepts, and the developers who embrace these.
(I'd include Brian & Blake's Kids Course at Old Barnwell in this "movement" too, perhpas "New Barnwell" may reinforce the concept when it comes along?)

Brian's point is correct, there is a 6000yd or less course hidden within every longer course if shorter tees are available and desired, this is great especially in winter. Clubs can embrace this by adding events or competitions that force/encourage play from forward tees (perhaps with reduced no.s of clubs as well to encourage walking and creativity in shot making)

But, the best version of these are designed as such, including Formby Ladies (notably without a review on here) and Sunningdale Heath (nee Ladies)
See:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67423.msg1611407/topicseen.html#msg1611407

Cheers

I like your point about courses much less than 6000 yards. It seems like 9 hole courses are the most fertile grounds for sub 3000 yarders.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1612703.html#msg1612703

Ciao

[Jason_Bernardon]

I like your point about courses much less than 6000 yards. It seems like 9 hole courses are the most fertile grounds for sub 3000 yarders.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1612703.html#msg1612703

Ciao

That describes my home course perfectly.


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/review-norfolk-golf-country-club/

[Thomas Dai]

It’s there already!
Folks don’t need, need, really need, to play from back tees nor have 14 clubs in the bag.

Move the tees forward and carry only 7-8 clubs.
And have courses set-up with less rough and gunch so finding wayward shots is quicker.
Fingers crossed for less than 3 hrs.
Atb

[Brian Finn]

I like your point about courses much less than 6000 yards. It seems like 9 hole courses are the most fertile grounds for sub 3000 yarders.
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1612703.html#msg1612703
Ciao

That describes my home course perfectly.
https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/review-norfolk-golf-country-club/

This is a nice profile and the course looks really interesting.  Great topography.  It's great to read about courses outside of the usual suspects, especially when they look this good!

[John Blain]

Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.

Regarding PH #3 you can play the first 8 holes in probably less than an hour !  There are 4 par 3's including two that play under 100 yards.

[Jim Sherma]

Course I know that fits this the best - Rolling Road in Catonsville, MD. Tips out at 6200 or so, par 70, club culture keeps rounds at inside of 3:30. Seems like most of the play is walking. Course hosted the State Am recently and will test all of anyone's game.

Slow golfers play slowly - doesn't matter what the course is. However for those that are not inherently slow I believe that these make for a quicker round than not:


1: Reasonable rough where the ball can be readily seen as you approach it
2: Reasonable green undulations and speeds so you are not grinding over 5-6' second putts all day
3: A pace of play culture that self polices
4: A match play culture so there is no expectation that everyone in the group needs to putt out every hole

[Tom_Doak]

I just finished listening to the latest Firm & Fast Golf podcast where Mike Clayton referenced a quote from Ran that more focus should be paid towards courses around 6,000 yards, test all 14 clubs in the bag and take 3 hours to play (this last figure is most important to me).

I know why golf lost its way over the years, but is there a path that can get us back to this sweet spot? In other words, how many more Sedge Valleys will be required before this type of course is not just a novelty but a norm?

Why would you carry 14 clubs?

[Peter Sayegh]

is there a path that can get us back to this sweet spot? In other words, how many more Sedge Valleys will be required before this type of course is not just a novelty but a norm?

I hope so but I also hope that a Sedge Valley (type) remains a novelty and NOT the norm in the future in your scenario.

[Jason_Bernardon]

Why would you carry 14 clubs?

From time to time I play a half set, retro sets (60s, 80s, 2000s) and even hickory.

[corey miller]

Had a conversation with Ran about this point many years ago and I may be mis-remembering but he may have disagreed with my point that a 6000 yard course from the back/member tees is much better than a 6600 yard course where one plays from 6000. 

[John Emerson]

I haven't carried more than 10 clubs in many years. There is just no need for it and it forces me look for creative ways to advance the ball which make the round more enjoyable. Carrying 14 clubs is a choice, an unnecessary one at that.

[Ronald Montesano]

1. I don't understand the obsession with getting off the course as quickly as possible. I'm coming around to thinking that you hour-obsessed golfers should get in shape and play speed golf;

2. I used to wonder why all cars in sequence at a red light didn't just hit the gas and zoom through the light. Way more cars would get through the intersection, right? Well, flawed humanity doesn't work that way. It's the same for golf;

3. Somewhere, perhaps the Carthage Club, a bunch of time-obsessed golfers will pool their resources and vigor a club whose only purpose is to play quick, efficient golf. They will dunk transgressors in a well, or make them wear a scarlet S (for Slow), or who knows what.