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Jason_Bernardon

  • Karma: +0/-0
6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« on: November 21, 2024, 08:27:18 AM »
I just finished listening to the latest Firm & Fast Golf podcast where Mike Clayton referenced a quote from Ran that more focus should be paid towards courses around 6,000 yards, test all 14 clubs in the bag and take 3 hours to play (this last figure is most important to me).


I know why golf lost its way over the years, but is there a path that can get us back to this sweet spot? In other words, how many more Sedge Valleys will be required before this type of course is not just a novelty but a norm?

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2024, 08:52:17 AM »
Aren't there many classic courses that would essentially fit if you played from the "correct" (often original) tees?
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2024, 08:56:39 AM »
Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2024, 09:14:23 AM »
Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.


Peter-I would put Franklin Park in Boston on the “poster child” list as well. George Wright seems to steal all the accolades as the city’s go to play but FP fits Ran’s requirement and is a blast. A hole to note is the par four 12th that I would consider one of the best in the area from either the private or public course stable.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 04:19:01 PM by Tim Martin »

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2024, 09:20:00 AM »
Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.
Sedge Valley is so important to this concept getting any traction in the US.
It is Tom Doak doing as Pete Dye is often cited as doing, an about face to recent mega scale projects and a welcome change in direction.

I hope it doesn't just end up as a design curiosity, albeit a great one as is the current status of The Loop.
But it is so great Tom keeps trying to find alternative concepts, and the developers who embrace these.
(I'd include Brian & Blake's Kids Course at Old Barnwell in this "movement" too, perhpas "New Barnwell" may reinforce the concept when it comes along?)

Brian's point is correct, there is a 6000yd or less course hidden within every longer course if shorter tees are available and desired, this is great especially in winter. Clubs can embrace this by adding events or competitions that force/encourage play from forward tees (perhaps with reduced no.s of clubs as well to encourage walking and creativity in shot making)

But, the best version of these are designed as such, including Formby Ladies (notably without a review on here) and Sunningdale Heath (nee Ladies)
See:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67423.msg1611407/topicseen.html#msg1611407

Cheers
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 09:21:53 AM by Simon Barrington »

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2024, 09:21:14 AM »
Clayts


Would it be better if 14 clubs were reduced to 10 and everyone carries their bag.


Less clubs would bring back more interesting shotmaking


Cheers
Ben

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2024, 09:54:02 AM »
Played Sedge in October in an annual event that pits the best golfers at our club against the caddies, pros and resort managers at SV, now in its 7th or 8th year. This year it was 1 round at Sedge, 1 round on Sandbox and 1 round at Lido.


(This year, we were massacred...;-)


But, we played a lot of golf with some of the best caddies there and they said that Sedge can serve up some long-ass rounds of 4:30-5:00 hours.


There are two "choke points" on the course:


On the front 9, there is a par 3 (5th), then a drivable par 4 followed by another par 3 then a long par 3. They say that it really gets backed up when groups search for balls in tall grass and every one seems to think they can get home on the par 4.


Then on the back, hole 11 is a reachahble par 5 (driver 5 iron for me) followed by a very reachable par 4 but with trouble everywhere then followed by a tricky par 3 with a massive green where 3-putting is the norm.


My point is that yardage alone may not reduce pace of play.
As this is a topic we have debated for years, I still default to the two things that can be decrease the horrendous pace of play now common at places like Sand Valley.


1. Ready golf
2. Having a pre-shot routine that is under 20 seconds.


(#. That and please limit your alcohol intake....;-)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2024, 09:59:14 AM »
Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.
Sedge Valley is so important to this concept getting any traction in the US.
It is Tom Doak doing as Pete Dye is often cited as doing, an about face to recent mega scale projects and a welcome change in direction.

I hope it doesn't just end up as a design curiosity, albeit a great one as is the current status of The Loop.
But it is so great Tom keeps trying to find alternative concepts, and the developers who embrace these.
(I'd include Brian & Blake's Kids Course at Old Barnwell in this "movement" too, perhpas "New Barnwell" may reinforce the concept when it comes along?)

Brian's point is correct, there is a 6000yd or less course hidden within every longer course if shorter tees are available and desired, this is great especially in winter. Clubs can embrace this by adding events or competitions that force/encourage play from forward tees (perhaps with reduced no.s of clubs as well to encourage walking and creativity in shot making)

But, the best version of these are designed as such, including Formby Ladies (notably without a review on here) and Sunningdale Heath (nee Ladies)
See:
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,67423.msg1611407/topicseen.html#msg1611407

Cheers

I like your point about courses much less than 6000 yards. It seems like 9 hole courses are the most fertile grounds for sub 3000 yarders.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1612703.html#msg1612703

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jason_Bernardon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2024, 10:15:01 AM »

I like your point about courses much less than 6000 yards. It seems like 9 hole courses are the most fertile grounds for sub 3000 yarders.

https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1612703.html#msg1612703

Ciao


That describes my home course perfectly.


https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/review-norfolk-golf-country-club/




Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2024, 10:35:32 AM »
It’s there already!
Folks don’t need, need, really need, to play from back tees nor have 14 clubs in the bag.

Move the tees forward and carry only 7-8 clubs.
And have courses set-up with less rough and gunch so finding wayward shots is quicker.
Fingers crossed for less than 3 hrs.
Atb

Brian Finn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2024, 11:20:32 AM »
I like your point about courses much less than 6000 yards. It seems like 9 hole courses are the most fertile grounds for sub 3000 yarders.
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60714.msg1612703.html#msg1612703
Ciao
That describes my home course perfectly.
https://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/review-norfolk-golf-country-club/
This is a nice profile and the course looks really interesting.  Great topography.  It's great to read about courses outside of the usual suspects, especially when they look this good!
New for '24: Monifieth x2, Montrose x2, Panmure, Carnoustie x3, Scotscraig, Kingsbarns, Elie, Dumbarnie, Lundin, Belvedere, The Loop x2, Forest Dunes, Arcadia Bluffs x2, Kapalua Plantation, Windsong Farm, Minikahda...

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2024, 12:11:27 PM »
Obviously not new courses-and bastardized versions of their original design-but PCC #1/#3 are the poster children for this scheme.
P.S. In January, BOTH could be played in about three hours.

Regarding PH #3 you can play the first 8 holes in probably less than an hour ;D !  There are 4 par 3's including two that play under 100 yards.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2024, 01:43:13 PM by John Blain »

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2024, 01:12:50 PM »

Course I know that fits this the best - Rolling Road in Catonsville, MD. Tips out at 6200 or so, par 70, club culture keeps rounds at inside of 3:30. Seems like most of the play is walking. Course hosted the State Am recently and will test all of anyone's game.

Slow golfers play slowly - doesn't matter what the course is. However for those that are not inherently slow I believe that these make for a quicker round than not:


1: Reasonable rough where the ball can be readily seen as you approach it
2: Reasonable green undulations and speeds so you are not grinding over 5-6' second putts all day
3: A pace of play culture that self polices
4: A match play culture so there is no expectation that everyone in the group needs to putt out every hole

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2024, 10:45:22 PM »
I just finished listening to the latest Firm & Fast Golf podcast where Mike Clayton referenced a quote from Ran that more focus should be paid towards courses around 6,000 yards, test all 14 clubs in the bag and take 3 hours to play (this last figure is most important to me).

I know why golf lost its way over the years, but is there a path that can get us back to this sweet spot? In other words, how many more Sedge Valleys will be required before this type of course is not just a novelty but a norm?


Why would you carry 14 clubs?

Peter Sayegh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2024, 08:18:55 AM »
is there a path that can get us back to this sweet spot? In other words, how many more Sedge Valleys will be required before this type of course is not just a novelty but a norm?
I hope so but I also hope that a Sedge Valley (type) remains a novelty and NOT the norm in the future in your scenario.

Jason_Bernardon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2024, 02:10:14 PM »

Why would you carry 14 clubs?


From time to time I play a half set, retro sets (60s, 80s, 2000s) and even hickory.

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2024, 03:09:54 PM »



Had a conversation with Ran about this point many years ago and I may be mis-remembering but he may have disagreed with my point that a 6000 yard course from the back/member tees is much better than a 6600 yard course where one plays from 6000. 




John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2024, 03:17:23 PM »
I haven't carried more than 10 clubs in many years. There is just no need for it and it forces me look for creative ways to advance the ball which make the round more enjoyable. Carrying 14 clubs is a choice, an unnecessary one at that.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2024, 05:29:17 PM »
1. I don't understand the obsession with getting off the course as quickly as possible. I'm coming around to thinking that you hour-obsessed golfers should get in shape and play speed golf;

2. I used to wonder why all cars in sequence at a red light didn't just hit the gas and zoom through the light. Way more cars would get through the intersection, right? Well, flawed humanity doesn't work that way. It's the same for golf;

3. Somewhere, perhaps the Carthage Club, a bunch of time-obsessed golfers will pool their resources and vigor a club whose only purpose is to play quick, efficient golf. They will dunk transgressors in a well, or make them wear a scarlet S (for Slow), or who knows what.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2024, 06:25:50 PM »
No reason to have 14 clubs.  Less clubs means less decision making about which one to hit.  Always loved the bench on the first tee at The Olympic Club which had engraved in it - Play Well. Play Fair. Play Fast.  Worst part of golf is it takes literally hours to play an 18 hole round. It is one thing to play relaxed, it is another to play slow. 


There have been a ton of ideas posted on this site about shorter courses with the intent of speeding up the game, reducing costs and ultimately having more fun.

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2024, 06:56:01 PM »
1. I don't understand the obsession with getting off the course as quickly as possible. I'm coming around to thinking that you hour-obsessed golfers should get in shape and play speed golf;
When you can play faster golf, you can play more golf.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2024, 08:04:11 PM »
1. I don't understand the obsession with getting off the course as quickly as possible. I'm coming around to thinking that you hour-obsessed golfers should get in shape and play speed golf;



Playing fast is not about getting off the course ASAP. It's about not having to stand around and wait between shots because of the slow players in front of you.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2024, 02:12:36 AM »
There is more than a fine line between waiting and rushing. I don’t care for either. Folks that absolutely must play fast should plan accordingly. Time wasters should be made known as such and dealt with accordingly.

We need more courses which tip out under 6000 yards.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2024, 07:24:23 AM »
If courses tip out beneath 6000 yards, won't we all become bomb-and-gouge players, hitting driver-wedge into fours? That is presuming a standard par of 72, with standard three, four, and five-par holes.

The notion of "not having to wait" begs the question of me: why don't you join a private club? If your private club has slow play, penalize your members. I can't help but recognize the selfishness in putting one's own interest (dare I say birthright) to play at her/his/their pace. Municipal and public-course golf are the Ellis Island of the game. You are more likely to find faster players at the muni, as it is usually less well-thought of (exceptions exist) and the home to proud regulars.

It's the daily-fee courses that get hit the hardest by the lack-of-speed demons. They want to brag that they played a high-end daily to their buddies. The average golfer goes farther laterally than vertically, has a rotten short game and, mercifully, gives and accepts putts of up to six feet (imagine if they putted them all out?)

Here's the clincher: they don't care as much as you do. Golf is not their religion. They are not acolytes. They play golf like they participate in other, leisure-time activities. They have the right in a free society to pay the freight. No daily-fee owner is going to ban a golfer, unless damage to the course or persons takes place, and can be proven.


The beloved Sedge Valley has one par five hole, tips out at 6159 yards, and has a par of 68. Five short holes against one long hole.


1   366      2   386      3   464       
4   447      5   149      6   303   
7   155      8   238      9   359
10   416      11   569      12   282
13   163      14   476      15   204
16   429      17   425      18    328


There are five meaty, two-shotters in there, ranging from 425 to 476. There is one meaty, one-shotter at 238. For the average golfer, the par for this course is at least 72, possibly 73. 464 and 476 are par five holes, and 238 is a par four for the chop.


Back are 5829. Back Middle are 5279.


How many, non-member/regular golfers will go to the back tees on Sedge or any other course of its length? I wish they would, and I don't know the answer. As golfers are creatures of habit, will they break that routing and play the tips? Will the tips tee decks get worn out, due to extensive play from them?


The reason Sedge Valley works at this resort, is that it is compact, compared to Mammoth, Lido, and Sand. It and Sandbox will be the favorites of the less-skilled set that come to the resort, at least until a sixth layout is added. If you look at a satellite view, a sixth course could not begin anywhere near resort-center but then, Sheep Ranch (and even Old MacDonald) have separate chalets for their courses.


That's a lot of off-track from me, and I apologize to those who were not enthralled by my expository writing. I have questions, and you have answers, so I pose them herein. Golf Club Atlas is going to transition away from the Morrisett era, into the Harvie era, and it's important to preserve the genteel, back-and-forth that the DG has always known (and often, supported.)


And to my friend down the Lake (Erie) in Erie, I agree that faster golf means more golf. I guess that's what 100-Holes-In-A-Day, charity events are for. Unless (said the Onceler) unless a course can attract enough, like-minded golfers to play a morning or afternoon run of two-rounds-in-six-hours (7 am to 1 pm, or 1 pm to 8 pm) that is financially sustainable.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 6,000 yards 14 clubs 3 hours
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2024, 07:55:32 AM »
Those who attended the Cotswolds Buda a couple of years ago will recall the 5,600 yard Stranahan course at Adrian’s Players Club. Plenty of canniness in its layout and plenty of strategic challenge as a result.
https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48856.msg1608863.html#msg1608863
Atb