What would be the Antithesis of the Great GCA Triumvirate's Golf Course Designs

[Ben Stephens]

Dear GCA,

The Current Great GCA Triumvirate - Coore + Crenshaw, Doak and Hanse Golf Course Designs over the last quarter of a century has been a big influence/huge trendsetters on many golf course designs and approaches especially on GCA.

Design styles evolves over time as you have seen in the past. I have been very fortunate to work in both Architecture (buildings) and Golf Course Architecture and the evolution of both are similar and opposite at times. In GCA for me there is quite a lack of the opposite of a popular design trend compared with buildings, products and cars etc where there is more variety in design styles.

My question what would you interpret as the Antithesis of the Great GCA Triumvirate's designs?

Cheers
Ben

[Simon Barrington]

In purely design terms (not beating on it as it potentially "grows the game") ...


Top Golf


Blatant, obvious, artificial, loud, brash, with prescribed targets.

[Ben Stephens]

In purely design terms (not beating on it as it potentially "grows the game") ...


Top Golf


Blatant, obvious, artificial, loud, brash, with prescribed targets.

Was looking from a physical golf course standpoint not a virtual one however you are right the golf course designs are much easier to be different in the virtual world.

Top Golf haven't created their version of a proper 'physical' full length golf course yet - one wonders what it will be like

However they have brought in a new generation of golfers and it will be interesting to see how the TGL venture goes whether they will pull it off or not. A friend of mine has raved about Top Tracer which was £12 for 100 balls they said it was worth it.

[Sean_A]

I have said this before, Doak is all over the map with his designs. The variety of styles and terrain is about as varied as one could hope for. Beyond Doak, there are all sorts of different size courses being built. Pay more attention to terrain and land use rather than bunker style.

I would also say that the Fazios and Nicklauses are still ploughing their trade. Dig deeper and you will find different styles out there.

So, I will push back against your premise. Why would I possibly want a design trend which focuses on good land (often sand based), attention to detail design and produces courses of all sizes to come to an end? My problem is more that a very small number of these designs are affordable or accessible.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

I have said this before, Doak is all over the map with his designs. The variety of styles and terrain is about as varied as one could hope for. Beyond Doak, there are all sorts of different size courses being built. Pay more attention to terrain and land use rather than bunker style.

I would also say that the Fazios and Nicklauses are still ploughing their trade. Dig deeper and you will find different styles out there.

So, I will push back against your premise. Why would I possibly want a design trend which focuses on good land (often sand based), attention to detail design and produces courses of all sizes to come to an end? My problem is more that a very small number of these designs are affordable or accessible.

Ciao

We may see things in a different way for me the 3vate GCA's work are very similar in terms of shaping across the spectrum some courses may look different from a wider eye however if you go closer down to the details it is similar.


I could name a few who have similar design approaches/trends in similar eras


Bob Cupp, Robert Von Hagge, Pete Dye and Desmond Muirhead have produced different ideas which are more out of the box compared with 'regular' golf course designs.

Trent Joneses, Fazio and Nicklaus are similar - 7000 yard tracks.

Colt, Simpson and Braid are similar

Ross and Flynn are similar

CBM and Mackenzie are polar opposites design wise and appearance of their courses are different.


Currently there is not one that stands out to be the polar opposite to the current Great 3vate GCAs (Andrew Green may be the nearest however some of his work is similar). I have not seen a golf course design that makes me jump out of my seat (a few buildings have) - I guess my standards may be too high.

[Sean_A]

I have said this before, Doak is all over the map with his designs. The variety of styles and terrain is about as varied as one could hope for. Beyond Doak, there are all sorts of different size courses being built. Pay more attention to terrain and land use rather than bunker style.

I would also say that the Fazios and Nicklauses are still ploughing their trade. Dig deeper and you will find different styles out there.

So, I will push back against your premise. Why would I possibly want a design trend which focuses on good land (often sand based), attention to detail design and produces courses of all sizes to come to an end? My problem is more that a very small number of these designs are affordable or accessible.

Ciao

We may see things in a different way for me the 3vate GCA's work are very similar in terms of shaping across the spectrum some courses may look different from a wider eye however if you go closer down to the details it is similar.


I could name a few who have similar design approaches/trends in similar eras


Bob Cupp, Robert Von Hagge, Pete Dye and Desmond Muirhead have produced different ideas which are more out of the box compared with 'regular' golf course designs.

Trent Joneses, Fazio and Nicklaus are similar - 7000 yard tracks.

Colt, Simpson and Braid are similar

Ross and Flynn are similar

CBM and Mackenzie are polar opposites design wise and appearance of their courses are different.


Currently there is not one that stands out to be the polar opposite to the current Great 3vate GCAs (Andrew Green may be the nearest however some of his work is similar). I have not seen a golf course design that makes me jump out of my seat (a few buildings have) - I guess my standards may be too high.

Well, I can’t agree that Colt, Simpson and Braid were similar.

Out of curiosity, what does an opposite design look like today?

Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. Who are the worst teachers at your school? Who is the doctor that you wouldn't trust with a scalpel?

[Simon Barrington]

"Well, I can’t agree that Colt, Simpson and Braid were similar.

Out of curiosity, what does an opposite design look like today?
Ciao"

I agree Sean, this shows the folly of trying to categorise any GCA's (ODG or Present Day) work as synonymous.

That is part of the human condition to wish to order things, but when dealing with different sites, budgets, clients and time periods it's even harder to force similarity.

This is especially the case for under-appreciated Braid, who did great work on all terrains and budgets.

I think IMHO that in itself is reason that his reputation should be higher than some might acknowledge, regardless of the scale of his body of work (530+ design credits)

Braid worked on courses from 1896 (Romford) right up until his death in 1950 (Stranraer & Home Park) he also had progression/change and adjusted to the styles, fashions and best thought of the day. Just as his prolific peer Donald Ross did in the US.

He also collaborated, thus assimilating others inputs, as a previous thread I discovered (w. Adam L) he worked (Routing) with HS Colt (Bunkering) at Bishops Stortford (in order to help Douglas Rolland out at a point of need).

Across his work I have seen work that certainly could be described (by others) as akin to Colt's and/or Simpson's in style and quality.
Sometimes even mistaken for the others one way or the other (Sherwood Forest for instance).

I have also seen images of Braid bunkering that The Good Doctor would be extremely proud of too (Ryl. Blackheath).

But of course closer inspection by experts and fanatics (I count myself in that) of one designer or another might see (or seek exhaustively) the subtle differences...which of course are there...they are all artists of great skill who we should appreciate and celebrate and not strive so hard to differentiate or worse than that try and rank!

Cheers

[Ben Stephens]

I have said this before, Doak is all over the map with his designs. The variety of styles and terrain is about as varied as one could hope for. Beyond Doak, there are all sorts of different size courses being built. Pay more attention to terrain and land use rather than bunker style.

I would also say that the Fazios and Nicklauses are still ploughing their trade. Dig deeper and you will find different styles out there.

So, I will push back against your premise. Why would I possibly want a design trend which focuses on good land (often sand based), attention to detail design and produces courses of all sizes to come to an end? My problem is more that a very small number of these designs are affordable or accessible.

Ciao

We may see things in a different way for me the 3vate GCA's work are very similar in terms of shaping across the spectrum some courses may look different from a wider eye however if you go closer down to the details it is similar.


I could name a few who have similar design approaches/trends in similar eras


Bob Cupp, Robert Von Hagge, Pete Dye and Desmond Muirhead have produced different ideas which are more out of the box compared with 'regular' golf course designs.

Trent Joneses, Fazio and Nicklaus are similar - 7000 yard tracks.

Colt, Simpson and Braid are similar

Ross and Flynn are similar

CBM and Mackenzie are polar opposites design wise and appearance of their courses are different.


Currently there is not one that stands out to be the polar opposite to the current Great 3vate GCAs (Andrew Green may be the nearest however some of his work is similar). I have not seen a golf course design that makes me jump out of my seat (a few buildings have) - I guess my standards may be too high.

Well, I can’t agree that Colt, Simpson and Braid were similar.

Out of curiosity, what does an opposite design look like today?

Ciao

Colt Braid and Simpson courses look similar however play a bit different only a few of us will notice it not the everyday golfer - sometimes the similarity could be down to construction approaches that they had at the time working within their limitations. These days a lot more can be done construction wise.

The opposite - it probably would be artificial - look at the proposed buildings in Saudi Arabia - Gidori for one - building wise however the course is being done by Nicklaus which is not a golf course version of the proposed building

https://www.neom.com/en-us/regions/magna/gidori


This building proposal made me jump out of my seat as a student Peter Eisenman's Musee Du Quai Branly competition entry - it was 2nd in the competition which was won by Jean Nouvel that was built. However its forms created by computer and we do have construction techniques to form these shapes I have often though could this form create one or a few holes


https://eisenmanarchitects.com/Musee-du-quai-Branly-1999


There are other design ideas from Zaha Hadid, Charles Jencks, Piet Oudolf with nature and Enric Miralles with artistic land forms.


https://www.zaha-hadid.com/architecture/landesgardenschau-landscape-formation-one/


This may be far fetched for many on this site. There are other design influences like car bodywork and product designs.

[Sean_A]

Ben

The building architecture examples isn't giving me a sense of what you mean for golf architecture.

Ciao

[Simon Barrington]

"Colt Braid and Simpson courses look similar however play a bit different only a few of us will notice it not the everyday golfer - sometimes the similarity could be down to construction approaches that they had at the time working within their limitations. These days a lot more can be done construction wise.

The opposite - it probably would be artificial - look at the proposed buildings in Saudi Arabia - Gidori for one - building wise however the course is being done by Nicklaus which is not a golf course version of the proposed building

https://www.neom.com/en-us/regions/magna/gidori

This building proposal made me jump out of my seat as a student Peter Eisenman's Musee Du Quai Branly competition entry - it was 2nd in the competition which was won by Jean Nouvel that was built. However its forms created by computer and we do have construction techniques to form these shapes I have often though could this form create one or a few holes

https://eisenmanarchitects.com/Musee-du-quai-Branly-1999

There are other design ideas from Zaha Hadid, Charles Jencks, Piet Oudolf with nature and Enric Miralles with artistic land forms.

https://www.zaha-hadid.com/architecture/landesgardenschau-landscape-formation-one/

This may be far fetched for many on this site. There are other design influences like car bodywork and product designs."



The resurrection of Desmond Muirhead beckons?

Or perhaps the return to Victorian exagerrated Geometric design?

I am suprised that such approaches have not been attempted/returned to but it would take a very brave (& wealthy) developer to do something so out of the norm.

Perhaps in the Virtual design sphere (TGL, Simulators etc.) this may come in, think Video Game Super Mario meets Muirhead?
But too far away for the real world I suspect.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

The building architecture examples isn't giving me a sense of what you mean for golf architecture.

Ciao

If you seen the roof forms of Eisenman's proposal - that could be recreated in big and bold landforms and you thread holes through the lower parts or over them.

I would conclude that Building Architecture is far more advanced and has much greater variety when it comes to design styles than golf course design which seems to be rather monotonous at present ie everyone doing similar work not one out of the box

[Ben Stephens]

"Colt Braid and Simpson courses look similar however play a bit different only a few of us will notice it not the everyday golfer - sometimes the similarity could be down to construction approaches that they had at the time working within their limitations. These days a lot more can be done construction wise.

The opposite - it probably would be artificial - look at the proposed buildings in Saudi Arabia - Gidori for one - building wise however the course is being done by Nicklaus which is not a golf course version of the proposed building

https://www.neom.com/en-us/regions/magna/gidori

This building proposal made me jump out of my seat as a student Peter Eisenman's Musee Du Quai Branly competition entry - it was 2nd in the competition which was won by Jean Nouvel that was built. However its forms created by computer and we do have construction techniques to form these shapes I have often though could this form create one or a few holes

https://eisenmanarchitects.com/Musee-du-quai-Branly-1999

There are other design ideas from Zaha Hadid, Charles Jencks, Piet Oudolf with nature and Enric Miralles with artistic land forms.

https://www.zaha-hadid.com/architecture/landesgardenschau-landscape-formation-one/

This may be far fetched for many on this site. There are other design influences like car bodywork and product designs."



The resurrection of Desmond Muirhead beckons?

Or perhaps the return to Victorian exagerrated Geometric design?

I am suprised that such approaches have not been attempted/returned to but it would take a very brave (& wealthy) developer to do something so out of the norm.

Perhaps in the Virtual design sphere (TLC, Simulators etc.) this may come in, think Video Game Super Mario meets Muirhead?
But too far away for the real world I suspect.

Is that the future of golf course design in virtual simulators like in Star Trek the Next Generation?


Wasn't Keiser brave to put a young DMK to work on Bandon? Who knows who will be the next ones to do it in a different way.


The younger generation have been influenced by computer games and different things - will golf survive in 50 years time with the similar numbers or more will move towards a virtual world with dynamic and unusual golf course designs.


Not many know that Desmond Muirhead helped to design the first iteration of Muirfield Village with Nicklaus and used in 1987 Ryder Cup.


I personally feel too many golf course designs are too safe and conservative in approach would be fortunate if someone comes up with something different and radical in my lifetime.


Has anyone seen Augustin Piza's proposals for a par 5 temple hole for TGL? - https://www.tglgolf.com/videos/2024/10/29/hole-strategy---temple

[Kyle Harris]

I propose that this question is not a qualitative one but a methodolical one. This, of course, requires a knowledge of the methodology. And the acceptance that the antithesis may live within the three architects proposed. What are the best designs that are the antithesis to the methodology of those three?

BUT

10 years ago scale was getting larger and larger and out-of-control and now that is swinging back to a more modest presentation.

Sedge Valley is as much the antithesis to Streamsong Blue as one could find in that regard. Sand Valley and The Backward at McArthur are another example.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is that the future of golf course design in virtual simulators like in Star Trek the Next Generation?

Would virtual courses such as those be sustainable? We would have to reopen dismantled nuclear reactors just to power such frivolity.


I say this because before I watch a glorious Gladiator II this afternoon I will have to sit through a lecture on the sustainability of AMC laser technology.

[Ben Malach]

I am just gonna do Canada

Glen Abbey -
Start of Stadium golf and the return of the golf professional signature architect.


The National -


Tom Fazio's first credited course and purely exists to torture the golfer.


Dakota Dunes-


Probably one of the most naturally gifted sites in Canadian golf butchered into bland golf that doesn't represent the land. Which is representative of golf in Canada post WW2.


I can do architects as well, but I think it can be reductive to reduce one person's work to be solely bad.


I know of a few architects that I wonder how they keep getting work but it's not my place to completely body bag people for feeding their family. That being said Les Furber has never built a good golf course. Gary Browning's work is the golfing equivalent of a sleeping pill and the costs associated with most signature architects for the quality they put out is not worth it.

[Dan_Callahan]

I would say Jim Engh's courses are the farthest removed from the Doak/C&C/Hanse designs that I have played. I haven't played a ton of his courses, but I did really like Snowmass and Fossil Trace.

[Tom_Doak]

I have said this before, Doak is all over the map with his designs. The variety of styles and terrain is about as varied as one could hope for.

Thank you, Sean.  I do try.


When I go to see one of Bill & Ben's new courses there are usually at least a couple of holes where I think, I never would have thought of that.  I don't think our product is all that similar, but I do think the ethos is.


I don't really think there are a lot of others who really want to be minimalists.  There are a lot of architects building wide fairways and rugged bunkers, trying to look like the courses we have built that have been successful.  Meanwhile I try out way different bunker styles for different courses.  Minimalism is not about bunker styles, it's about what you don't do.


Of course there will be a trend after minimalism, but it's useless to predict exactly what it will be.  Someone has to just do it, instead of lamenting that it isn't being done. 

[Ben Stephens]

I have said this before, Doak is all over the map with his designs. The variety of styles and terrain is about as varied as one could hope for.

Thank you, Sean.  I do try.


When I go to see one of Bill & Ben's new courses there are usually at least a couple of holes where I think, I never would have thought of that.  I don't think our product is all that similar, but I do think the ethos is.


I don't really think there are a lot of others who really want to be minimalists.  There are a lot of architects building wide fairways and rugged bunkers, trying to look like the courses we have built that have been successful.  Meanwhile I try out way different bunker styles for different courses.  Minimalism is not about bunker styles, it's about what you don't do.


Of course there will be a trend after minimalism, but it's useless to predict exactly what it will be.  Someone has to just do it, instead of lamenting that it isn't being done.

Tom


This is one of the best responses on GCA I do agree with you on the word ethos which is probably a better word than similar in a generalistic way - you never know what's around the corner when and which is the next design style that eventually becomes popular.

Regarding your comment on C+C - the Architecture equivalent for me is Herzog De Meuron - their buildings always seem to exceed expectations - I was in 'fairy design land' when I saw their completed building work for Prada in Tokyo with my own eyes and saw things and said 'wow I never thought about that' - https://www.herzogdemeuron.com/projects/178-prada-aoyama/ which is the Antithesis what a retail store 'should be' having worked in retail architecture for a couple of years.


Cheers
Ben

[Sean_A]

Ben

The building architecture examples isn't giving me a sense of what you mean for golf architecture.

Ciao

If you seen the roof forms of Eisenman's proposal - that could be recreated in big and bold landforms and you thread holes through the lower parts or over them.

I would conclude that Building Architecture is far more advanced and has much greater variety when it comes to design styles than golf course design which seems to be rather monotonous at present ie everyone doing similar work not one out of the box

My guess is you don’t really know what is the opposite of what is being built now. The building architecture references don’t help me understand where you are going with this thread.

I believe we have a wider variety of architecture now than has probably ever existed. All sorts of stuff from true minimalism to complete build from scratch to geometric to naturalism to flat to mountain to desert to reversible to short yardage to long yardage etc etc is happening. I guess you are difficult to satisfy.

To be honest, there is so much happening right now that I can’t even keep up let alone try to play most of these courses.

If you are talking about a trend to take over, again, I don’t think I want a new trend. What is happening now is awesome and extremely varied. I have no desire to see the current trend end because I don’t know what will come next and what we have is outstanding. I played a reversible 9 hole course which can also be played in multiple ways in terms of jumping around. Short grass everywhere. Seriously small property. Built from nothing. I am not too worried about bunker styles. 😎.

Ciao

[Ben Stephens]

Ben

The building architecture examples isn't giving me a sense of what you mean for golf architecture.

Ciao

If you seen the roof forms of Eisenman's proposal - that could be recreated in big and bold landforms and you thread holes through the lower parts or over them.

I would conclude that Building Architecture is far more advanced and has much greater variety when it comes to design styles than golf course design which seems to be rather monotonous at present ie everyone doing similar work not one out of the box

My guess is you don’t really know what is the opposite of what is being built now. The building architecture references don’t help me understand where you are going with this thread.

I believe we have a wider variety of architecture now than has probably ever existed. All sorts of stuff from true minimalism to complete build from scratch to geometric to naturalism to flat to mountain to desert to reversible to short yardage to long yardage etc etc is happening. I guess you are difficult to satisfy.

To be honest, there is so much happening right now that I can’t even keep up let alone try to play most of these courses.

If you are talking about a trend to take over, again, I don’t think I want a new trend. What is happening now is awesome and extremely varied. I have no desire to see the current trend end because I don’t know what will come next and what we have is outstanding. I played a reversible 9 hole course which can also be played in multiple ways in terms of jumping around. Short grass everywhere. Seriously small property. Built from nothing. I am not too worried about bunker styles. 😎.

Ciao

Hi Sean,


Tried to use a different reference which I am more used to as I work as an Architect and have a keen interest in all sort of Architecture. There is much more design evolution in buildings as there is a lot more of them around and they have been around a lot longer than golf courses.


There is much more variety in terms of golf course layout more than ever before - reversible 9s, 18s and 4 no 6 hole loops, more disabled golf facilities, short game areas, Top Golf etc and so on.


However it is more the look/aesthetics that still looks similar like a housebuilder's home in the UK more like Toyland in Noddy which I am querying about - why does it all look so similar where there are other different shapes and looks that are possible.


Zaha Hadid used to say - 'there are 359 other degrees why only use one?' buildings tend to be square and common. Golf course design tends to be 'too common' lots copying each other.


There is a square green and square water hazard on one hole in Noria GC in Morocco - I thought hey that's different not the norm some may not like it and others will why isn't there more of this.


There is not that many geometric courses - are they disliked, harder to maintain or puts off golfers playing it because it looks awkward - one example is Bob Cupps Course at Palmetto Hall.


Also there is not many copying the style of Pete Dye is this out of respect or cost/not a safe option to attract golfers as Dye courses reputation is that they are hard for most golfers.


There is something in architecture called Parametric Architecture I guess that has not transpired across to golf course design yet. Zaha Hadid and Peter Eisenman who I have been interested in have moved Architecture forward in that respect and it has created a new design style.


Also there is flood resilient architecture where flood prevation/floating/amphibious houses are created which I have been working on - is there an amphibious golf green where the green moves upwards when flood waters come into the golf course has that type been constructed yet? Climate change is a factor and new ways will be needed to prevent golf courses being closed. Maybe one day we will see an amphibious golf green .


Cheers
Ben 
   

[Robin_Hiseman]

Zaha Hadid used to say - 'there are 359 other degrees why only use one?'


I suspect Zaha Hadid's engineers would reply, "Gravity".

[Sean_A]

Ben

Amphibious green? Sounds like a fancy way of saying island green.

I don’t worry about the aesthetics of design. That is small beer when compared with the bigger picture of land use. Aesthetic styles come and go. The issue is more some trying to copy an aesthetic style on land not suited to naturalism which is often parkland sites. To be honest, I am not sure there is a right aesthetic for parkland golf. I am more interested in the placement, angle, number and size variety of bunkers than I am about the style. Beyond that, I wish more earthwork shaping was used instead of bunkering or to enhance bunkering.

Ciao

[Simon Barrington]

"Also there is flood resilient architecture where flood prevation/floating/amphibious houses are created which I have been working on - is there an amphibious golf green where the green moves upwards when flood waters come into the golf course has that type been constructed yet? Climate change is a factor and new ways will be needed to prevent golf courses being closed. Maybe one day we will see an amphibious golf green .
Cheers
Ben"


Coueur d'Alene? 

[Ben Stephens]

"Also there is flood resilient architecture where flood prevation/floating/amphibious houses are created which I have been working on - is there an amphibious golf green where the green moves upwards when flood waters come into the golf course has that type been constructed yet? Climate change is a factor and new ways will be needed to prevent golf courses being closed. Maybe one day we will see an amphibious golf green .
Cheers
Ben"


Coueur d'Alene?

That's a floating island green not an amphibious one.


Amphibious is where the green sets on land when it is dry and then it floats up and down in case of flood. Will send you a PM