Your thoughts on uphill approaches to angled and sloped greens

[mike_malone]

My home course provides these on several holes. The members just adore the challenge. Last week a friend hit a hybrid from 170/180 that rolled for twenty yards onto the front left of the green. I expected him to have a chance at birdie but it rolled back to the right sloping fairway down 40 yards into the rough.


Some don’t like this but I think it’s real challenge that flatter approaches can’t duplicate. Interestingly Pine Valley doesn’t have much of this. I recall most of their uphill holes as straight on. It would be over the top there.


I really think this is an exceptional architectural feature because there are so many possibilities.


Your thoughts?

[Craig Sweet]

I was thinking the other day about the lack of holes at Old Works that encourage running the ball up onto the green. Most don't.  Unless perfectly struck on the proper line and pace the slope of the land rising up to the green carries the ball away from the green surface and into a hazard. I don't like that.

[Scott Warren]

Mayday,

I reckon holes/shots like you describe can get out of hand pretty quickly due to green and fairway speeds getting faster (year to year and also during dormancy) and also topdressing and sand splash increasing slopes beyond what was intended.

I also find that, perhaps due to the landforms those sorts of greens are often built on, the greens tend to be inclined to shrug a marginal shot off rather than having a safer section that will gather it, albeit probably leave you with a longer putt.

They also seem too often to have balls feed back into a catchment area that invariably becomes overrun by divots.

Used sparingly, it's an impactful feature and can set up some cool experiences.

[mike_malone]

I was thinking the other day about the lack of holes at Old Works that encourage running the ball up onto the green. Most don't.  Unless perfectly struck on the proper line and pace the slope of the land rising up to the green carries the ball away from the green surface and into a hazard. I don't like that.

 In my experience that can be fun but one usually has the option to carry it farther versus a flatter approach where either tactic works.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Gary Player played RG a few years ago and was very negative, criticizing the of number of false fronts and elevated greens. “I don’t know how the members can enjoy this” was the gist of his parting remarks.
   At the time, I dismissed he criticism. After all, architecture isn’t his strong suit. I thought more about it over time, and have changed my mind. On 13 of the 18 holes, a shot that stops on the very front of the green will roll back a minimum of 15 yards and, on 8 of the holes, over 25 yards.
  I agree that this feature used “sparingly” can be challenging and fun. But on 13 holes? I’m off the reservation. I think I remember Jamie Slonis expressing a similar point of view.
   

[mike_malone]

   Gary Player played RG a few years ago and was very negative, criticizing the of number of false fronts and elevated greens. “I don’t know how the members can enjoy this” was the gist of his parting remarks.
   At the time, I dismissed he criticism. After all, architecture isn’t his strong suit. I thought more about it over time, and have changed my mind. On 13 of the 18 holes, a shot that stops on the very front of the green will roll back a minimum of 15 yards and, on 8 of the holes, over 25 yards.
  I agree that this feature used “sparingly” can be challenging and fun. But on 13 holes? I’m off the reservation. I think I remember Jamie Slonis expressing a similar point of view.
 

He also said they were the best greens he played.


I believe the vast majority of the members totally disagree with Player. They love the challenge.


I do agree that we should decide how many should roll all the way down but I still think the angled approaches are a distinctive feature that makes repeated play enjoyable. Keep the approaches but stop balls from rolling down too much.

[Jim_Coleman]

    You can insult a person’s wife before you can insult his golf course.

[mike_malone]

We actually only have five angled uphill approaches 4,6,11,12,and 14.

[Sean_A]

Used sparingly the concept is fine. It all adds to the variety. The one aspect I don’t like is that big hitters have a huge advantage on this type of hole. Usually these greens are sloped to the front. The guy having to hit a flatter shot to reach often ends up near the backs of greens (if he hits a good shot) and is then faced with a crazy fast downhill putt. The slower UK greens make these type of holes more enjoyable imo. Still. a few these holes is enough unless in rare cases the height and length of the approach is widely varied and the greens more varied as well.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

13 at Elie is surely the poster boy for this kind of hole?

[Sean_A]

13 at Elie is surely the poster boy for this kind of hole?

Cool hole, more so because the course isn’t saturated with this type of hole.


Ciao

[Mike Worth]

Used sparingly the concept is fine. It all adds to the variety. The one aspect I don’t like is that big hitters have a huge advantage on this type of hole. Usually these greens are sloped to the front. The guy having to hit a flatter shot to reach often ends up near the backs of greens (if he hits a good shot) and is then faced with a crazy fast downhill putt. The slower UK greens make these type of holes more enjoyable imo. Still. a few these holes is enough unless in rare cases the height and length of the approach is widely varied and the greens more varied as well.

Ciao

Well said! 


I played Rock Spring (Banks) in West Orange NJ week before last —


I think it is #10 — might be the most severe false front I ever played. I got a bit inattentive with my approach after a well placed drive and watched the ball roll about 50 yards back off the green – – twice.


I wouldn’t want too many holes like that, but this one was a nice mixup in architecture to keep things interesting

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
We have discussed this many times.  I think the feature is great especially if used sparingly.  Flynn did the same at Lehigh on #17, however, balls rolling back off the false front don’t seem to all collect in the same divot pool.  That would be the aspect to correct at Rolling Green since there are so many holes with this feature.  As long as the rule stands that balls must be played as they lie in fairway divots, that might be a challenge for your members but can’t be fun. The penalty is far too great for the error.


Some of the greatest courses in the world have these features.  I distinctly remember putting from above the first hole at Sand Hills and ending up 30 yards off the green. But balls seem to disperse to different areas (or maybe there is just much less play there so fewer divots).  Cherry Hills, another Flynn also has this feature on #18.  Many Ross courses have it as he often liked to have golfers playing into plateaued greens with false fronts.  I think it is great if not over used and the approaches are contoured appropriately to avoid divot collection areas. 

[Mark Pearce]

13 at Elie is surely the poster boy for this kind of hole?

Cool hole, more so because the course isn’t saturated with this type of hole.


Ciao

Indeed.  In fact I think it's the only one.  The course has greens with slopes feeding down to greens, greens running away, greens with slopes feeding from one side or the other but the only others with a slope up to the green are 2, and that's rarely ever more than a wedge to a green that slopes away and 14, where the green lies on the slope and the ball will run on.

[Sean_A]

13 at Elie is surely the poster boy for this kind of hole?

Cool hole, more so because the course isn’t saturated with this type of hole.


Ciao

Indeed.  In fact I think it's the only one.  The course has greens with slopes feeding down to greens, greens running away, greens with slopes feeding from one side or the other but the only others with a slope up to the green are 2, and that's rarely ever more than a wedge to a green that slopes away and 14, where the green lies on the slope and the ball will run on.

Elie really is a top tier Scottish course dressed as a holiday course. Long may it remain so.

Ciao

[mike_malone]

13 at Elie is surely the poster boy for this kind of hole?

Mark,


Said that was a Rolling Green hole.

[mike_malone]

When there are multiple uses of this feature you get a chance or two to redeem yourself from early failures. When it becomes a defining characteristic of a course you know you will be challenged all day.


Sean,


 If there are more occasions the low hitting golfer learns how to navigate better through more chances.


It seems that having a bailout opening in the entrance helps the higher handicapper. The best players still believe they can execute the shot so are more prone to the worst outcomes.

[Ben Stephens]

My home course provides these on several holes. The members just adore the challenge. Last week a friend hit a hybrid from 170/180 that rolled for twenty yards onto the front left of the green. I expected him to have a chance at birdie but it rolled back to the right sloping fairway down 40 yards into the rough.


Some don’t like this but I think it’s real challenge that flatter approaches can’t duplicate. Interestingly Pine Valley doesn’t have much of this. I recall most of their uphill holes as straight on. It would be over the top there.


I really think this is an exceptional architectural feature because there are so many possibilities.


Your thoughts?

Didn't you recently play the 13th at Elie? 

[mike_malone]

My home course provides these on several holes. The members just adore the challenge. Last week a friend hit a hybrid from 170/180 that rolled for twenty yards onto the front left of the green. I expected him to have a chance at birdie but it rolled back to the right sloping fairway down 40 yards into the rough.


Some don’t like this but I think it’s real challenge that flatter approaches can’t duplicate. Interestingly Pine Valley doesn’t have much of this. I recall most of their uphill holes as straight on. It would be over the top there.


I really think this is an exceptional architectural feature because there are so many possibilities.


Your thoughts?

Didn't you recently play the 13th at Elie? 

Ben,


Yes and I called it a Rolling Green hole. Actually that’s a mild version of the idea.




I think people may be underestimating the many possible results this set up offers versus a straightforward hole with relatively flat surrounds. Even a green straight on top of the hill has fewer problems.


You can roll off, bounce in the low side bunker, end up in the high side bunker trying to just come in perfectly, go over the back to either a falloff or a hill, end up in the rough on the hillside with a tough task to keep it on the green, or bounce down a hill parallel to the green leaving a blind shot. Of course you can end up on the green in many spots and usually will roll many feet.


The reason I think it is grand to have several of these types of holes is you walk away having had quite the experience.

[Rory Connaughton]

This calls to mind Mike Cirba's great presentation on Hugh Wilson. As I recall, Mike drew attention to Wilson's
use of the area just short of the top of a slope or bluff for green locations. This technique is also used at most Flynns that I have played.


It seems that you just need to remember that even though the fronts are maintained as green, the greens themselves are much smaller than they appear.

[cary lichtenstein]

It's so much fun to watch your ball roll off the green and down the hill and end up 50 yards short of the green.


Also, when your ball sucks back and rolls into the water.


Even if used sparingly, I think it's kinda stupid

[mike_malone]

It's so much fun to watch your ball roll off the green and down the hill and end up 50 yards short of the green.


Also, when your ball sucks back and rolls into the water.


Even if used sparingly, I think it's kinda stupid

Cost—-occasional frustration
Benefit—more interesting and varied results.

[Jim_Coleman]

Cost—-occasional frustration
Benefit—more interesting and varied results.

   More varied results? All the balls roll down to the same place. The only variety is whether or not your ball comes to rest in a divot. Gravity always wins.

[mike_malone]

Cost—-occasional frustration
Benefit—more interesting and varied results.

   More varied results? All the balls roll down to the same place. The only variety is whether or not your ball comes to rest in a divot. Gravity always wins.

I don’t think you are understanding this topic. Every time YOU hit a shot to 12 at Rolling Green it rolls back? I mean you personally.

[Jim_Coleman]

   If I hit it little shorter than I wanted? Absolutely. And to the same place 30 yards below. What am I missing?