The Lido attribution

[Michael Moore]

Tom Doak and Brian Schneider?
 
Aw shucks, Mr. Keiser insisted on it?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak and Brian Schneider?
 
Aw shucks, Mr. Keiser insisted on it?

It is really Macdonald’s design, of course, but if you attribute it straight to him that opens up a whole can of worms of its own, and the next thing you know everyone will claim their new course is by Seth Raynor.


We’ve been exceptionally clear about what our role was throughout the project and I’m not one to steal credit.  But by the same token, we had to do an awful lot of work to get it built.

[Tommy Williamsen]

This project is unlike anything I can think of. It feels like a one-off. To Tom's credit, he has never claimed it to be his.

[Ben Stephens]

No Peter Flory?

[Matt Schoolfield]

I got to play there with Brian Zager, and he was one of the most fun and interesting people I've ever been paired with.

Talking a lot with him, my impression is that there is a lot of credit to go around, and it seems like everyone involved with the project is very proud of their contribution. It honestly sounded like they had a lot of fun, too. It was a big team effort to revive a C.B. Macdonald design, and I think it's pretty clear that it was a successful one.

[Tim_Weiman]

I got to play there with Brian Zager, and he was one of the most fun and interesting people I've ever been paired with.

Talking a lot with him, my impression is that there is a lot of credit to go around, and it seems like everyone involved with the project is very proud of their contribution. It honestly sounded like they had a lot of fun, too. It was a big team effort to revive a C.B. Macdonald design, and I think it's pretty clear that it was a successful one.

Matt,


Yes, I’m wondering what the point of starting this thread was. Isn’t everyone here already clear about the unusual nature of this project?


Tim

[Will Thrasher]

@Tim I had the same thought. Comes off like a very weird bone to pick.

[Michael Moore]

Sorry if I was unclear, but Tom and Brian understood me. As Tom states, this is a Charles Macdonald design and I was just curious as to why it can't listed as such on the GOLF hot 100.

[Simon Barrington]

Tom Doak and Brian Schneider?
 
Aw shucks, Mr. Keiser insisted on it?

It is really Macdonald’s design, of course, but if you attribute it straight to him that opens up a whole can of worms of its own, and the next thing you know everyone will claim their new course is by Seth Raynor.
We’ve been exceptionally clear about what our role was throughout the project and I’m not one to steal credit.  But by the same token, we had to do an awful lot of work to get it built.

Tom, was just listening to a Top100 Golf Courses Podcast with Brian, and it's clear it was a huge team endeavour which you all should be praised for.
I listended intently to Raynor's incredible skill in replicating the plasticine model from CBM, I am interested as your view of the contribution of Peter Lees in the original's building?
Cheers

[Steven Wade]

There's a pretty great trio of albums by Billy Bragg and Wilco titled Mermaid Avenue (nice tie in to the Lido logo, no?) volumes 1-3. The musicians were contacted by Guthrie's daughter roughly two decades after his death when she happened upon a trove of his songs that had never been recorded. They were entrusted to bring these songs to life off of a piece of paper. They had the lyrics, with stylistic notations on the music, but they needed to use their skill and artistry to bring the songs to life. I see this course the same way. Yes, this existed on paper (or as a collection of ones and zeroes in a computer), but the construction of this course wasn't just pushing play on a series of plans.


I also think that if this course had been attributed to CBM, there'd be an equal number of people complaining that his name was on it. This is such a unique course that really opens up a damned if you do, damned if you don't problem on the attribution. I haven't played it yet, but I'm happy it exists. I'll be interested to see where it lands in the rankings over the next 5 years, because I was pretty shocked to see it debut so high.

[Brian Finn]

If you go on the website for the Lido in WI, it clearly lists CB MacDonald as the original architect, Tom Doak and Brian Schneider as restoration architects, and Peter Flory as golf historian. That seems like a very effective attribution.

[Bret Lawrence]

Tom Doak and Brian Schneider?
 
Aw shucks, Mr. Keiser insisted on it?

It is really Macdonald’s design, of course, but if you attribute it straight to him that opens up a whole can of worms of its own, and the next thing you know everyone will claim their new course is by Seth Raynor.
We’ve been exceptionally clear about what our role was throughout the project and I’m not one to steal credit.  But by the same token, we had to do an awful lot of work to get it built.

Tom, was just listening to a Top100 Golf Courses Podcast with Brian, and it's clear it was a huge team endeavour which you all should be praised for.
I listended intently to Raynor's incredible skill in replicating the plasticine model from CBM, I am interested as your view of the contribution of Peter Lees in the original's building?
Cheers

Simon,


I know your question was directed to Tom, but I thought I could help out with the Peter Lees question.  Peter Lees was considered an expert greenkeeper and appeared to be responsible for the preparation and growing in of the golf course.  He was likely the on site Superintendent of construction. In the first 5 replies of this old Lido thread you can find two articles written by Peter Lees which explain his role. 


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html


Peter Lees also visited a site in East Islip, NY along with Raynor and Macdonald in 1915.  The course at East Islip never came to fruition but it was to be built for Marion Hollins father Harry Hollins. This may be insignificant to Lido, but it does show that Raynor and the Hollins relationship dates back to as early as 1915, which may be more significant to Cypress Point.


I have no problem with the modern attribution, but I think it does highlight how much work Seth Raynor did to the original without getting as much credit as the modern architects.  A quote about Seth Raynor from Macdonald in his book Scotland’s Gift: Golf reads:


“When it came to accurate surveying, contours, plastic relief models of the land, draining, piping water in quantity over the entire course, wells and pumps, and in many instances clearing land of forests, eradicating the stones, finally resulting in preparing the course for seeding, he had no peer.”


I think Macdonald viewed these tasks of the golf architect as important as the design itself.  What good is a design if no one can put it in the ground for you?


Bret

[Simon Barrington]

Tom Doak and Brian Schneider?
 
Aw shucks, Mr. Keiser insisted on it?

It is really Macdonald’s design, of course, but if you attribute it straight to him that opens up a whole can of worms of its own, and the next thing you know everyone will claim their new course is by Seth Raynor.
We’ve been exceptionally clear about what our role was throughout the project and I’m not one to steal credit.  But by the same token, we had to do an awful lot of work to get it built.

Tom, was just listening to a Top100 Golf Courses Podcast with Brian, and it's clear it was a huge team endeavour which you all should be praised for.
I listended intently to Raynor's incredible skill in replicating the plasticine model from CBM, I am interested as your view of the contribution of Peter Lees in the original's building?
Cheers

Simon,


I know your question was directed to Tom, but I thought I could help out with the Peter Lees question.  Peter Lees was considered an expert greenkeeper and appeared to be responsible for the preparation and growing in of the golf course.  He was likely the on site Superintendent of construction. In the first 5 replies of this old Lido thread you can find two articles written by Peter Lees which explain his role. 


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html


Peter Lees also visited a site in East Islip, NY along with Raynor and Macdonald in 1915.  The course at East Islip never came to fruition but it was to be built for Marion Hollins father Harry Hollins. This may be insignificant to Lido, but it does show that Raynor and the Hollins relationship dates back to as early as 1915, which may be more significant to Cypress Point.


I have no problem with the modern attribution, but I think it does highlight how much work Seth Raynor did to the original without getting as much credit as the modern architects.  A quote about Seth Raynor from Macdonald in his book Scotland’s Gift: Golf reads:


“When it came to accurate surveying, contours, plastic relief models of the land, draining, piping water in quantity over the entire course, wells and pumps, and in many instances clearing land of forests, eradicating the stones, finally resulting in preparing the course for seeding, he had no peer.”


I think Macdonald viewed these tasks of the golf architect as important as the design itself.  What good is a design if no one can put it in the ground for you?


Bret

Bret



Thank you, very kind and informative.


Cheers!

[Tim_Weiman]

Simon,


FYI, I remember a conversation I had with Tom Doak a while back. Tom was discussing the value of his experience with Pete Dye.


Basically Tom said golf architecture “wasn’t just about sketching holes on paper…..you have to be able to build them”.


If I remember correctly, we were discussing the original course at Stonewall.

[Bret Lawrence]

Simon,


Here are two more articles on Lido discussing Peter Lees.  The first was written by H.J. Whigham in Town & Country Magazine.  The first paragraph of the second page, he breaks down Macdonald, Raynor and Lees role at Lido.  There is also a great picture of Devereux Emmet and his son, winners of the Father-Son tourney at Sleepy Hollow.


Town & Country., July 10, 1916:




The second article includes a quote or two from Lees when he is called back to Lido in 1919 to find the course no longer maintained.


Philadelphia Inquirer., August 10, 1919:



Bret

[Simon Barrington]

Simon,

FYI, I remember a conversation I had with Tom Doak a while back. Tom was discussing the value of his experience with Pete Dye.

Basically Tom said golf architecture “wasn’t just about sketching holes on paper…..you have to be able to build them”.

If I remember correctly, we were discussing the original course at Stonewall.

Thanks, as Pete Dye was Tom is really good at celebrating the inputs of others, as was CBM with Raynor.
Art & Dirt fused
Cheers

[Steven Wade]

Simon,

The second article includes a quote or two from Lees when he is called back to Lido in 1919 to find the course no longer maintained.


Philadelphia Inquirer., August 10, 1919:



Bret

Edward T. Stotesbury’s Philadelphia estate basically encompassed the town that I currently live in. There is a restaurant soon to open just a short walk from me called The Stotesbury. I had no idea he had any involvement in The Lido. Now I want to dig around a bit and see if he was involved in any Philadelphia courses.

[Simon Barrington]

Simon,


Here are two more articles on Lido discussing Peter Lees.  The first was written by H.J. Whigham in Town & Country Magazine.  The first paragraph of the second page, he breaks down Macdonald, Raynor and Lees role at Lido.  There is also a great picture of Devereux Emmet and his son, winners of the Father-Son tourney at Sleepy Hollow.


Town & Country., July 10, 1916:




The second article includes a quote or two from Lees when he is called back to Lido in 1919 to find the course no longer maintained.


Philadelphia Inquirer., August 10, 1919:



Bret

Thanks so much Bret

My interest stems from Peter Lees doing some (limited) alteration work for James Braid at Henley GC pre-WWI.
Harold Hiton was also assisting Braid (who was suffering with his eye issues at the time).

The images in this link show his classic mounding (& a massive bunker) that was involved (B&W & colour image kindly done by Dai Thomas):-

https://x.com/CambridgeGrey/status/1835247989276684602

Pretty cool looking back that Lees did work for JH Taylor, Braid & CBM

Cheers