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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
The End Of An Era At Brora?
« on: November 16, 2024, 05:59:55 PM »
The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2024, 06:06:59 PM »
The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways
Issuing a welfare call for Sean & Dai...this is too much for late on a Saturday evening to process...

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2024, 06:07:44 PM »
Do the animals get a vote?
AKA Mayday

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2024, 06:21:44 PM »
The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways
Why do Clubs self inflict so much damage upon themselves in considering removing what is so special and unique?

Brora is a great fun course remodelled by one of the very best, but what is really unique especially to overseas visitors ($$$) is the rustic charm and tighly ruminated fairways and rough. It elevates the experience, giving visitors something to think about (for both future sustainability, and historic reference) and enjoy out of the norm.

My fear would be if they remove this unique aspect and see a decline in the agronomy too.
Then a refreshed Struie, the permission on Coul Links being passed (I hope it is) and overseas visitors instead of staying to play Brora will simply by-pass it for more flashy notable challenges.

Put it this way, if Brora vote to remove them, if I was at supposedly struggling nearby Golspie I'd invite the animals there ASAP!





Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2024, 07:52:05 PM »
I can fully understand wanting to rid the links of cows. I am less convinced about removing sheep. Yes, cows are a symbol of Brora, but I don’t think removing cows would reduce visitor numbers. Mind you visitor fees may rise to pay off the farmers. That might put off some visitors off, but I don’t envision the club taking a loss in the medium term.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2024, 04:04:41 AM »
I can fully understand wanting to rid the links of cows. I am less convinced about removing sheep. Yes, cows are a symbol of Brora, but I don’t think removing cows would reduce visitor numbers. Mind you visitor fees may rise to pay off the farmers. That might put off some visitors off, but I don’t envision the club taking a loss in the medium term.
Ciao
I can't fail to see the irony that the same week this proposal comes up, the Highland Coo logo at "Old Petty" is launched... ::)


Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2024, 04:07:45 AM »
The membership will soon be voting on whether or not to remove the sheep and cattle from the course.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-11-16/scottish-golf-courses-debate-future-of-cattle-on-the-fairways
Why do Clubs self inflict so much damage upon themselves in considering removing what is so special and unique?
Brora is a great fun course remodelled by one of the very best, but what is really unique especially to overseas visitors ($$$) is the rustic charm and tighly ruminated fairways and rough. It elevates the experience, giving visitors something to think about (for both future sustainability, and historic reference) and enjoy out of the norm.
My fear would be if they remove this unique aspect and see a decline in the agronomy too.
Then a refreshed Struie, the permission on Coul Links being passed (I hope it is) and overseas visitors instead of staying to play Brora will simply by-pass it for more flashy notable challenges.
Put it this way, if Brora vote to remove them, if I was at supposedly struggling nearby Golspie I'd invite the animals there ASAP!
Yikes!
As Queen Victorian would have said … “We are not amused”.
Black arm band time.
Atb

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2024, 05:02:04 AM »
I can't fail to see the irony that the same week this proposal comes up, the Highland Coo logo at "Old Petty" is launched... ::)

Maybe move the Brora sheep and cattle to Coul? Might help get a few enviromental folks to change their stance on the proposed course at Coul (breath not being held though).
atb

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2024, 05:05:03 AM »
I can fully understand wanting to rid the links of cows. I am less convinced about removing sheep. Yes, cows are a symbol of Brora, but I don’t think removing cows would reduce visitor numbers. Mind you visitor fees may rise to pay off the farmers. That might put off some visitors off, but I don’t envision the club taking a loss in the medium term.
Ciao
I can't fail to see the irony that the same week this proposal comes up, the Highland Coo logo at "Old Petty" is launched... ::)

Another Coo logo? The damn thing is as popular as wind turbines in Scotland.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2024, 07:28:14 AM »
Yes, there's nothing better than trying to extract your Pro V from a freshly laid cow pat.  ::)


Do people really go to Brora to see cows or sheep or is it just something that they remember afterwards ? Surely they go there for the quality of the golf ? Will it be a worse course with no livestock ? I'm also not sure that the livestock help with the agronomy aspects but what they obviously do is help retain the open aspect of the course. Take the animals off the course and I suspect that through the green will improve condition wise but that the deep rough will become just that, deep rough. I'm not sure that will make the course worse or put off visitors.


Niall

Simon Barrington

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2024, 07:48:38 AM »
Yes, there's nothing better than trying to extract your Pro V from a freshly laid cow pat.  ::)

Do people really go to Brora to see cows or sheep or is it just something that they remember afterwards ? Surely they go there for the quality of the golf ? Will it be a worse course with no livestock ? I'm also not sure that the livestock help with the agronomy aspects but what they obviously do is help retain the open aspect of the course. Take the animals off the course and I suspect that through the green will improve condition wise but that the deep rough will become just that, deep rough. I'm not sure that will make the course worse or put off visitors.

Niall
Well educated Scottish Golf Historian professes ambivalence for "Deep Rough" on classic links golf courses, The Good Doctor is rolling in his grave!
 ;D
« Last Edit: November 17, 2024, 07:54:05 AM by Simon Barrington »

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2024, 10:19:30 AM »
Why must all courses seek the same look and conditioning. In other areas having a 'point of difference' is seen as a distinct advantage, creating your own story.




After an 18 year gap I've made the pilgrimage the last two years and it would put me off revisiting.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2024, 10:24:48 AM »
Time to put some speculation to bed. I went to Brora and was immediately smitten with the golf course. When I take first-timers to Scotland, I want their first course to be Brora. When my kids get old enough to finally play a “big course” in Scotland, I want their first round to be Brora. So I joined as a full playing member (not overseas). Why? Cause like Ran says, this is what I imagine golf in Scotland to be. Look over some dunes, feel the wind and see/smell the ocean close, whack ball, go find it, and hit it again until it’s holed.


The club seems heavily invested in the two questions before the membership in this EGM. One of those is the Common Grazing Rights question. They’ve planned hard. As a very limited user with a voting right, I feel it’s important to be differential to both local members AND club officials.


The specific concern I had as a somewhat turf-knowledgeable person was this: the rough/native at Brora is one of its essential elements. Livestock help create this wonderful melded fairway edge and thinner roughs/native. Losing it and becoming like dozens of “higher profile” links with unplayable rough/native will assuredly change the course.


So I asked. And the reply I received is that soil testing combined with a few “no livestock” test areas indicate that the rough will remain  similar to how it is now. I have no reason to doubt this assessment. The course manager at Brora presented what, by the end of our trip, I considered the best course presentation and turf I’d yet seen in Scotland.


I wanted to post this not to disclose or publicize club business, but because it seems many in the greater golf world care a great deal about Brora.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2024, 12:05:40 PM by Ben Sims »

ward peyronnin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2024, 11:48:36 AM »
Pennard boasted a similar menagerie and as I recall the motivation to clear the bovines was that the proper fertilizer or other applications would not be healthy for the animals.So maybe removing the animals allows for more flexibility for turf management at Brora?
"Golf is happiness. It's intoxication w/o the hangover; stimulation w/o the pills. It's price is high yet its rewards are richer. Some say its a boys pastime but it builds men. It cleanses the mind/rejuvenates the body. It is these things and many more for those of us who truly love it." M.Norman

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2024, 12:05:48 PM »
Open kimono time. I went to Brora and was immediately smitten with the golf course. When I take first-timers to Scotland, I want their first course to be Brora. When my kids get old enough to finally play a “big course” in Scotland, I want their first round to be Brora. So I joined as a full playing member (not overseas). Why? Cause like Ran says, this is what I imagine golf in Scotland to be. Look over some dunes, feel the wind and see/smell the ocean close, whack ball, go find it, and hit it again until it’s holed.


The club seems heavily invested in the two questions before the membership in this EGM. One of those is the Common Grazing Rights question. They’ve planned hard. As a very limited user with a voting right, I feel it’s important to be differential to both local members AND club officials.


The specific concern I had as a somewhat turf-knowledgeable person was this: the rough/native at Brora is one of its essential elements. Livestock help create this wonderful melded fairway edge and thinner roughs/native. Losing it and becoming like dozens of “higher profile” links with unplayable rough/native will assuredly change the course.


So I asked. And the reply I received is that soil testing combined with a few “no livestock” test areas indicate that the rough will remain  similar to how it is now. I have no reason to doubt this assessment. The course manager at Brora presented what, by the end of our trip, I considered the best course presentation and turf I’d yet seen in Scotland.


I wanted to post this not to disclose or publicize club business, but because it seems many in the greater golf world care a great deal about Brora.


Ben,


We loved Brora and thought the turf including the rough and greens to be excellent, and more importantly, consistent with the nature of the course. I appreciate you asking the question. My follow up for you or another turf expert is what are they looking to accomplish in terms of conditioning if they say the rough/fairway meld will not change?


It is of course for the members to decide. I do hope that they are thinking about potential unintended consequences.


Thanks.


Ira

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2024, 07:17:26 PM »
"Where men are men, and the sheep ... are afraid."
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2024, 09:00:55 PM »
Open kimono time. I went to Brora and was immediately smitten with the golf course. When I take first-timers to Scotland, I want their first course to be Brora. When my kids get old enough to finally play a “big course” in Scotland, I want their first round to be Brora. So I joined as a full playing member (not overseas). Why? Cause like Ran says, this is what I imagine golf in Scotland to be. Look over some dunes, feel the wind and see/smell the ocean close, whack ball, go find it, and hit it again until it’s holed.


The club seems heavily invested in the two questions before the membership in this EGM. One of those is the Common Grazing Rights question. They’ve planned hard. As a very limited user with a voting right, I feel it’s important to be differential to both local members AND club officials.


The specific concern I had as a somewhat turf-knowledgeable person was this: the rough/native at Brora is one of its essential elements. Livestock help create this wonderful melded fairway edge and thinner roughs/native. Losing it and becoming like dozens of “higher profile” links with unplayable rough/native will assuredly change the course.


So I asked. And the reply I received is that soil testing combined with a few “no livestock” test areas indicate that the rough will remain  similar to how it is now. I have no reason to doubt this assessment. The course manager at Brora presented what, by the end of our trip, I considered the best course presentation and turf I’d yet seen in Scotland.


I wanted to post this not to disclose or publicize club business, but because it seems many in the greater golf world care a great deal about Brora.


Ben,


We loved Brora and thought the turf including the rough and greens to be excellent, and more importantly, consistent with the nature of the course. I appreciate you asking the question. My follow up for you or another turf expert is what are they looking to accomplish in terms of conditioning if they say the rough/fairway meld will not change?


It is of course for the members to decide. I do hope that they are thinking about potential unintended consequences.


Thanks.


Ira


Ira,


I think a significant amount of time is spent by the crew to remove excrement. I also think the crew anticipates an improvement of playing conditions in the greens surrounds after fence removal.


The quiet part no one is saying out loud is that Brora has owned the land in which their golf course sits since 2021. Ask yourself, if you had the choice, whether you would want livestock animals on your golf course. I suspect most course managers would say no. I feel it’s important to defer to a good course manager on their home turf in most cases, pun intended.


As to whether the absence of livestock will curtail visitor revenue, I have no idea. I think there’s evidence to say no. Maybe we should ask Tom if his 7 rating was due to the sheep. ;D
« Last Edit: November 17, 2024, 09:03:12 PM by Ben Sims »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2024, 09:17:41 PM »
It should also be mentioned that the livestock at times did damage to the course, such a collapsing the walls of bunkers and the banks of the 2 burns that flow thru the course. When the ground was wet the livestock also left hoof prints in the turf. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2024, 02:28:57 AM »
Why must all courses seek the same look and conditioning. In other areas having a 'point of difference' is seen as a distinct advantage, creating your own story.

After an 18 year gap I've made the pilgrimage the last two years and it would put me off revisiting.

Really? You won’t play Brora without livestock on the course?

I think it’s important to differentiate between cows and sheep. Cows ain’t good for golf. So far as I know the only positive is rough munching. The damage they do is not worth the hassle if sheep can remain. Sheep are excellent for golf. Same grass eating benefits as cows, much better fertiliser, no damage to the course and the nibbling height is a perfect fairway height. Plus the wonderful blurred fairway lines can remain. Practically every course I know which allows only sheep has some of the best quality turf going. IMO removing sheep would be a mistake. People think they can easily replicate the benefits of sheep with inputs and good rough management. I think this is true in theory with the exception of the blurred fairway lines. In practice, however, I am less convinced.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Chris Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2024, 02:51:54 AM »
Exactly how many cows are there?
"Is it the Chicken Salad or the golf course that attracts and retains members ?"

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2024, 03:48:36 AM »
I think it’s important to differentiate between cows and sheep. Cows ain’t good for golf. So far as I know the only positive is rough munching. The damage they do is not worth the hassle if sheep can remain. Sheep are excellent for golf. Same grass eating benefits as cows, much better fertiliser, no damage to the course and the nibbling height is a perfect fairway height. Plus the wonderful blurred fairway lines can remain. Practically every course I know which allows only sheep has some of the best quality turf going. IMO removing sheep would be a mistake. People think they can easily replicate the benefits of sheep with inputs and good rough management. I think this is true in theory with the exception of the blurred fairway lines. In practice, however, I am less convinced.
Ciao
Nicely summarised.
While sheep do most of the work the cattle, especially the longhorn variety, are more akin to poster boys and look cute in photos etc. In modern social media, TV, camera-phone society poster boys/girls and looking cute seems to matter quite a bit and is an excellent source of free publicity. Free publicity being no bad thing for a small golf club in a very rural part of the World who claim to need visitor money to survive (remember Brora’s call for financial support around the time of Covid?).
It would be a sad day for golf, a game that started on seaside links terrain grazed by animals, and I suggest a sad day Brora GC too, if they were to remove the grazing animals from the course.
Atb

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2024, 04:37:35 AM »
So Brora was looking for financial support because it was struggling, and that was around about the time it bought the land the course sits on ? Hmmm...


Niall

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2024, 09:08:17 AM »
So Brora was looking for financial support because it was struggling, and that was around about the time it bought the land the course sits on ? Hmmm...


Niall


Niall,


To what level are you aware of the sequence of events from March 2020 onward at Brora? The global call for support was swift and aggressive. It seems that support was so large that the club turned from dire straights rather quickly.

https://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2020/06/our-future-is-now-secure/
« Last Edit: November 18, 2024, 09:11:23 AM by Ben Sims »

Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2024, 10:01:31 AM »
Doesn't the accumulation of sheep and cow manure (including urine) over decades and decade negatively impact the links properties of the turf? Perhaps the changes to the turf are very gradual, minuscule and probably not noticed, but I'm sure there must be some changes in the turf characteristics as well as the soil composition. From an environmental and ecological point-of-view, is it better that cows and sheep are removed?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The End Of An Era At Brora?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2024, 11:04:01 AM »
As a junior overseas member of a nearby club for seven seasons, the last four a bit frustrating, I remain deferential to the local members who feel the impact of operating decisions much more directly.  These good folks enjoy the full benefits over the entire year at essentially similar costs, so, though somewhat grudgingly, I've come to accept decisions which accrue to their benefit even at the expense of my own.


Brora is special.  I've played the course more than a dozen times over the years and always look forward to returning.  The animals have never bothered me in the least, though stepping over the electric wire strands is becoming more annoying and difficult.  I particularly like the juxtaposition to its busier, more regulated, highly-acclaimed neighbor.  Brora as well as Golspie, without sacrificing the core golf experience, feel more relaxed, with no feint of pretension, and appreciative of my visits.


Undoubtedly, a small number will be put-off if the grazing animals are moved from the property.  I don't see the cows or the sheep  to be integral to the golfing experience.  I know that it is dangerous to generalize the experience gained from 60+ years of maintaining my residential landscape to 100+ acres of golfing turf, but I've seen the negative effects rabbits can have eating and releasing their waste in small areas.  There is a reason farmers rotate their livestock and considerable anecdotal evidence of large herds of wildlife devastating areas before moving on to do the same elsewhere.


I suspect that removing the animals will not have a negative financial impact on the club and could very well contribute to improved playing conditions.  Southerndown in Wales is the only course I can think of whose livestock added to the playing experience.