[Brian Finn]

Scotscraig is struggling as well…
https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/sport/golf/5099272/fife-golf-course-scotscraig-vote-future/

That is a shame to hear.  I played Scotscraig in April and really enjoyed it.  The front 9 is particularly good.  I first heard about it when an architect I follow on Instagram (I believe it was Brian Schneider, but can't find the post) praised the interesting land and unique design features.  When I researched it here, it received praise (a few years back) from FBD and others.  While the value proposition is different for everyone, I felt the £50 I paid was very good value.  I can't view the linked article, but the members I played with expressed a desire to get more visitor play.

[Adrian_Stiff]

The slightly strange juxtaposition is of this thread with the concurrent one about Elie and its members-and-guests-only summer policy. One suggests a very thriving club context, the other the polar opposite. Both can, of course, be true simultaneously...elsewhere in the UK reports of sporadic club and course closures continue, but then at the same time so do reports of thriving and/or reintroduced waiting lists. Many clubs remain in a (much) healthier position than they were pre-COVID but those professionally involved like Adrian et al will have a much better idea of how things are shaping up for the generality of mid-table suburban clubs where so much English (NB) golf takes place.

I think that we are sliding back toward pre covid levels. I think that PRO GOLF is not in a good place, it has got very boring to watch on TV, mainly the courses are dull and too much the same. The LIV situation does not help the viewer wants to see best v the best, for me I just watch majors. The courses WE tend to like are not dull but the big tournaments need the big infrastructure. I even think the Masters has got a bit pants, the par 3 is actually fun to watch except its not really a competition. Back in the 70s in the UK we had PRO CELEBRITY GOLF and that kick started a lot of people to golf, an hour long program with TV personalities, maybe we need something like that. From a UK point of view the weather has been horrible for the last four years off season so some people just dont get their value, not many want to play in the rain, not many want to carry (you all might here but its a minor opinion) their clubs. The game is slow. Aimpoint make it even slower. The handicapping system allows easier 'cheating' so some feel that they are disadvantaged.
The game won't go away but it will contract a bit and it will probably mean we need to lose one in eight golf courses over the next 5-10 years. That could in some areas where they are all good, you would lose a good one. Quality of the course may not even be the absolute decider which one goes. Closeness, where your mates play and price all play a big factor.
Going abroad on golf trips is at its most popular though, the modern golfer is much more nomadic they play around much more which once again hurts the membership model if they are in a monthly society group.
Scotland and the Scots like things a bit too cheap and they need to accept that $70 a month for unlimited golf will cause a bit carnage for some clubs. The min wage is the same North and South, yet golf gets cheaper in the UK as you go North, if you get too skinny with the sums well.........

[Richard Fisher]

Many thanks Adrian. V helpful and interesting.
From a UK perspective, always good to remind ourselves of the cycles that have impacted British golf clubs, and (not least) how many very famous names were seriously imperilled by declining memberships in the decade after WW2 when all of Sunningdale RStG etc were actively looking for recruits and courses like Addington New were disappearing altogether. You then had the 'never had it so good' consumer boom and in golf terms I tend to think that the period from the 1960s to 1980s was a period of strong consolidation, with the massive 'golf boom' spike in course and club construction of the 1990s followed by serious post-2010 retrenchment and then COVID...were the game to contract a bit it wouldn't be the end of the world, but my worry is that the contraction won't (as these two threads show) be evenly shared. And your point about what is a reasonable price for 52 weeks of golf per annum is an important one: I agree that c£20 a week has to be a minimum workable proposition, and anything less than that (without significant green fee income) will mean a very different experience n from the one club golfers now expect. But colleagues may well dispute this!

[Adam Lawrence]

Many thanks Adrian. V helpful and interesting.
From a UK perspective, always good to remind ourselves of the cycles that have impacted British golf clubs, and (not least) how many very famous names were seriously imperilled by declining memberships in the decade after WW2 when all of Sunningdale RStG etc were actively looking for recruits and courses like Addington New were disappearing altogether. You then had the 'never had it so good' consumer boom and in golf terms I tend to think that the period from the 1960s to 1980s was a period of strong consolidation, with the massive 'golf boom' spike in course and club construction of the 1990s followed by serious post-2010 retrenchment and then COVID...were the game to contract a bit it wouldn't be the end of the world, but my worry is that the contraction won't (as these two threads show) be evenly shared. And your point about what is a reasonable price for 52 weeks of golf per annum is an important one: I agree that c£20 a week has to be a minimum workable proposition, and anything less than that (without significant green fee income) will mean a very different experience n from the one club golfers now expect. But colleagues may well dispute this!

To be fair, Addington New wasn't lost due to any contraction in golf, but due to the need to provide homes for the post-war generation.

[Thomas Dai]

The circa £20/week, or £1,040 p/a, is an interesting figure. For say 500 members that would equate to approx £500,000 p/a. How many clubs could operate on that income and are they the type of club/course that a significant number of visitors are likely to want to visit?
Of course, in parts of the country supply/demand for membership varies. Some clubs don’t have say even near 500 members now whereas others at £1,040 p/a would have folks knocking down doors to join.
There’s also another point to consider. Golf in the UK is played by significantly more men than women and the average age of male golfers at private members clubs is circa 60/65 years of age. In other words folks who are likely retired or semi-retired and have plenty of spare time on their hands. What are these folks going to do with their time 365 days p/a if they don’t play golf pretty much irrespective of the price membership somewhere relatively close to home costs? Without meaning to be in any way sexist but to paraphrase what a members wife once said to me only slightly in jest “I’d be happy to pay thousands a year to get him out of the house and away from under my feet!”
Folks play golf for lots of different reasons.
Atb

[Richard Fisher]

Agreed re Addington New, Adam, and of course ground conditions meant that ultimately they built notably fewer houses than originally envisaged...
David's point about the demographics of who actually plays golf, and the gender balance thereof, is a key one, of course. Interesting if there is any/much regional variation in that?

[Ben Sims]

There seems to be a massive financial disconnect between the clubs that can subsidize membership via visitors and the clubs that can’t. Clearly the vast majority of UK clubs don’t rely on visitor revenue to subsidize their membership. Problem is, they have to offer competitive subscriptions. Seems like a tough row to hoe.

[Mark Pearce]

Sean,


Scotscraig is certainly worth a play.  Having said which, I haven't been there for years.

[Niall C]

The latest news articles suggest that Scotscraig members have voted for the committee to speak to "funding partners" and that they already have a preferred funding partner in mind. The same report suggests that Kingsbarns are interested in talking and are waiting to hear.


I find it surprising that a club like Scotscraig is in this situation. As one of the oldest clubs in the world they are obviously well established and with a course that is well regarded (did CBM not copy a hole at Scotscraig for one of his templates ? ). I've played there a few times the last of which was just after lockdown. It's a fairly good heathland type course with an older sizeable clubhouse (by UK standards) that needs a bit of upgrading but still more than acceptable. I'd be interested to learn whether the £200K shortfall last year was a one off and what caused it.


Niall

[Thomas Dai]

Something odd about the Scotscraig/Fife situation.
Scotscraig to Elie is 20 miles yet the latter is limiting visitor numbers in the summer and the other is seemingly in deep doo-doo and both are highly regarded.
Atb

[Mark Pearce]

Something odd about the Scotscraig/Fife situation.
Scotscraig to Elie is 20 miles yet the latter is limiting visitor numbers in the summer and the other is seemingly in deep doo-doo and both are highly regarded.
Atb

Very different membership profiles.

[Brian Finn]

Something odd about the Scotscraig/Fife situation.
Scotscraig to Elie is 20 miles yet the latter is limiting visitor numbers in the summer and the other is seemingly in deep doo-doo and both are highly regarded.
Atb

Very different membership profiles.

Additionally, from an overseas visitor's perspective, Elie ticks a few more boxes than Scotscraig, most notably the seaside location and views throughout the round.  It is also a better golf course, by a decent margin, in my opinion. 

[Mark Pearce]

Something odd about the Scotscraig/Fife situation.
Scotscraig to Elie is 20 miles yet the latter is limiting visitor numbers in the summer and the other is seemingly in deep doo-doo and both are highly regarded.
Atb

Very different membership profiles.

Additionally, from an overseas visitor's perspective, Elie ticks a few more boxes than Scotscraig, most notably the seaside location and views throughout the round.  It is also a better golf course, by a decent margin, in my opinion.

Agreed on all of these points.

[Niall C]

Elie is like your average Scottish course in the same way that Scarlett Johansson is like your average female actress.


Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

[size=inherit]NOTHING WE DON'T ALREADY KNOW BUT ANOTHER ARTICLE TODAY[/size][/color][/font]
[/color][size=inherit]It’s not just the cost-of-living crisis threatening the existence of our golf courses.  [/size][/color]
[/color]Mother Nature has a role to play, too.  [/size]
[/color]When we spoke to Chris Spencer of the Scottish Golf & Club Managers Association, he sent out a stark warning that clubs will close if they struggle to make ends meet financially. And while his Welsh counterpart, Ray Chilten, agrees, there is another factor with which to contend.[/size]
[/color]And the numbers are alarming. [/size]
[/color]“The weather is a major, major concern at the moment,” he tells [size=inherit]bunkered.co.uk[/size][/color]. “For all golf courses. 
[/color]“We feel that the season has changed. We normally get a wet April and a nice October, but this year it started raining halfway through September. [/size]
[/color]“Up until, I would say, five years ago, the course would only shut four or five times a year. Last year it was shut around 40 to 50 times.” [/size]
[/color]• This club made a controversial change to its course – now it’s more popular than ever[/size]
[/color]• Study reveals over 100 English golf courses at flooding risk[/size]
[/color]Chilten, who as well as being the secretary of GCMA Wales is a member of Newport, says this has caused apprehension in many of the club’s departments.  [/size]
[/color]“It’s a major problem for the PGA professional,” Chilten explains. “He’s franchised, he’s got his shop, and he relies on passing trade. And while the course is closed, that passing trade is not going through.  [/size]
[/color]“He’s concerned because he’s got staff to keep employed, but it will get tight if the weather continues the way it the way it is.” [/size]
[/color]Out on the course, the grounds staff have concerns of their own. [/size]
[/color]“The head greenkeeper is worried sick about carrying out winter maintenance,” Chilten continues.  [/size]
[/color]“He can’t get heavy machinery out on the course, and he’s got bunker maintenance to do, so they’re having to physically go out there with shovels to do the work instead of being able to use any equipment. That’s going to delay things.” [/size]
[/color]And even when the course can be open, it limits the number of people who can actually come and play. On the day we’re chatting, the adverse conditions have forced Newport staff to put a no-trollies rule in place.  [/size]
[/color]“Through the week, the majority of people playing golf are retired,” Chilten explains. “And not everybody can carry, so they either need a trolley or a buggy to put their clubs in.  [/size]
[/color]“As we talk, I’m at the club and there must be half a dozen cars in the car park. Normally, at this time of day, it would be full.  [/size]
[/color]“So you’ve got the pro shop struggling with someone keeping it open despite no passing trade, then you’ve got the chef and the bar staff and there’s only two or three people in the clubhouse having a coffee. It’s not sustainable. [/size]
[/color]“We’re extremely fortunate because we’ve got no loans. We own all our land and our property. We can afford to ride it out, as far as the bad weather is concerned, but there’s a typical club up the road where they’re paying 80 to 90,000 pounds leasing the land before they even get going.” [/size]
[/color]• Popular golf club to be sold after fraud scandal[/size]
[/color]• More Scottish golf courses will close, warns industry expert[/size]
[/color]Chilten, though, is worried it could all come to a head with clubs and members clashing.  [/size]
[/color]“A lot of golf clubs are putting fees up by eight to 10 per cent, and that’s caused a lot of kick-backs from the members who are saying, ‘Hang on a minute, we’ve got a cost-of-living crisis and you’re still ramping the fees up.’ And then they’re saying, ‘Well, we should get a refund because we haven’t been able to play golf.’  [/size]
[/color]“And the reaction to them is, ‘Hang on a minute, you’re a member of the golf club, you’re a part owner, you have to make sure that you know that the bills are paid.’ They say, ‘Oh, all right, OK.’ But for the proprietary clubs, where they have few members and only really have corporate visitors coming in, it’s a real problem for them. [/size]
[/color]“It’s a double-edged sword.” [/size]

[Thomas Dai]

Player expectations have changed. Outdoor clothing, footwear etc too. But nature is still seasonal even if the timing of the seasons have changed a bit over the years.
Golf’s a seasonal game, the more so on parkland courses. On free draining courses things can be a bit different.

I’m sure there are a few folks posting herein who can recall the days when if you walked a few steps down the 1st fairway on a parkland course your socks and feet would already be wet. And as a consequence less folks played and expected to play parkland golf during wet and soggy periods.
Players are selfish too. Not necessarily more selfish than in the past, although an argument could maybe be had over this, but there seems to be a lack of appreciation that walking, using a power trolley etc during poor weather has an impact on the condition of the course a few days, weeks, months later. Yet the same folks who have trashed a course over the winter with their desire to play in at best ‘iffy’ conditions are likely to be the same folks who will moan and complain when the same course isn’t in the condition they expect in the Spring. And don’t get me started on the use of buggies on parkland when the weather and ground conditions are poor or ‘iffy’.
Atb

[Adam Lawrence]

Player expectations have changed. Outdoor clothing, footwear etc too. But nature is still seasonal even if the timing of the seasons have changed a bit over the years.
Golf’s a seasonal game, the more so on parkland courses. On free draining courses things can be a bit different.

I’m sure there are a few folks posting herein who can recall the days when if you walked a few steps down the 1st fairway on a parkland course your socks and feet would already be wet. And as a consequence less folks played and expected to play parkland golf during wet and soggy periods.
Players are selfish too. Not necessarily more selfish than in the past, although an argument could maybe be had over this, but there seems to be a lack of appreciation that walking, using a power trolley etc during poor weather has an impact on the condition of the course a few days, weeks, months later. Yet the same folks who have trashed a course over the winter with their desire to play in at best ‘iffy’ conditions are likely to be the same folks who will moan and complain when the same course isn’t in the condition they expect in the Spring. And don’t get me started on the use of buggies on parkland when the weather and ground conditions are poor or ‘iffy’.
Atb

That may well all be true, but it doesn't address the point Adrian's post asks: how are those parkland courses supposed to stay in business?

[Mike Worth]

Elie is like your average Scottish course in the same way that Scarlett Johansson is like your average female actress.


Niall

Elie is the course I would purchase and close to the world (except locals) if I suddenly became a billionaire.

[Simon Barrington]

Exacerbating the issue is not just the weather but the composition and unusual locations of that weather

(N.B. Very sorry, I know the thread is mostly about Scotland, but I don't have that rainfall data, perhaps someone more local can assist? No offence meant in that regard)

Over the last 12 months the two least wet (not driest which would be a v. poor description) Regions in England are the North-West and North East (at 138% and 134% of normal LTM Average, which equates to 1,649mm and 1,141mm of Rain respectively, or 65inches and 45inches in old money!)

The wettest relative to normal is The South-East at 153% of LTM Average.

So the historically drier areas of the country (South & East) have been getting a larger increase in rainfall than those who are used to managing the water (North & West).

Sadly so many English Clubs are investing rare "Covid Boom" & VAT Refund surpluses on shiny incandescent white wiggly pastiche cloned bunkering with expensive over-specified liners etc., instead of the recommendation of the man they are trying to mimic the look of hazards of...Dr. Mackenzie...

That being:

Drainage, Drainage & Drainage are the only solutions in the longer-term...and if they don't work try more Drainage...

[Adrian_Stiff]

Courses are worse in the UK because we can't spray for worms like we used too:


"When I was boy weusedta spray Sydane"  it lasted for 6 years and no worm popped his head up from that.


We now have chemicals about 1% as effective that last 3 months and are 20 times the price and I have heard rumours in the worm forums many worms just laugh at this. They are eco-friendlier ofcourse.


Those casting worms cause havoc bringing a glob of soil to the surface which is oft squatted into flat splots which in themself seal the wet in.


Verti drain more, stretch that soil and holes holes holes are great forms of drainage drainage drainage, which as Simon suggested is the better way to spend funds.

[Niall C]

Elie is like your average Scottish course in the same way that Scarlett Johansson is like your average female actress.


Niall

Elie is the course I would purchase and close to the world (except locals) if I suddenly became a billionaire.

Mike


No disrespect but I hope you never get to buy a Scottish course.


Niall

[Lou_Duran]

Sadly so many English Clubs are investing rare "Covid Boom" & VAT Refund surpluses on shiny incandescent white wiggly pastiche cloned bunkering with expensive over-specified liners etc., instead of the recommendation of the man they are trying to mimic the look of hazards of...Dr. Mackenzie...

That being:

Drainage, Drainage & Drainage are the only solutions in the longer-term...and if they don't work try more Drainage...

Replacing "English" with "UK", I'd add upscale clubhouses and sprinkler systems (though the latter might help in reducing overwatering of poorly draining areas).


Off the topic a bit, an acquaintance from the U.S. was recently granted membership at Formby, a course I'm not familiar with.  My understanding is that this is a club of consequence and that memberships are strictly limited.  He had a longtime member sponsor him and the process took just over one year from the time he expressed an interest.


It appears that demand for memberships is highly localized.  As an aspiring member of a UK club with hopes of attaining full rights diminishing rapidly and unexpectedly over the last three years, will the bloom be off the rose anytime soon, or should I look elsewhere?   

[Mark Pearce]

Depends on which club you want to join, Lou.  The Golf House Club (Elie) just closed its waiting list because the wait to join had reached 5 years.  Other clubs are open to immediate membership.

[Brian_Ewen]

:'(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeVxL053o0k

[Brian_Ewen]

Dornoch closes its waiting list amid 'unprecedented demand'

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24722757.dornoch-closes-waiting-list-amid-unprecedented-demand/

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