[Charlie Goerges]

It's hard to get the full idea of what I'm asking into the subject, sorry.


EDIT: maybe modify this to say WELL out of position.

What I'm looking for is examples of holes (and as much explanation as you're willing to give) where the out of position player has an interesting, fun, well-thought-out (at least seemingly) shot. I'm curious for players up and down the skill ladder, any type of hole, any circumstance etc.


It can be purposely well-thought-out, or just accidentally interesting/fun/good.




a few examples of the infinite scenarios to get you started:


Good player pops up the drive
Weaker player smashes two good shots on a par 5
Weaker player playing from too far back hits a terrible drive
Long player from a forward tee absolutely crushes a drive




So whenever the player hits a non-average shot and is out of position, what holes out there give the most fun/interest in that situation, in your opinion?

[Ben Sims]

Charlie,


I just spent a few days at Old Barnwell, myself (a 9.6) another member (a 6) and two guests that aren’t golf travelers live near me up here at altitude (16 and 20).


It was fascinating to watch my two higher handicap friends not lose a ball for almost four rounds and be consistently flummoxed by the golf course. Most notable was their inability until maybe the fourth round to stop inadvertently aiming along the line of instinct. They were monstrously out of position on oodles of holes. Usually short and off to one side. It was massively rewarding for me to watch them constantly think about their second shots on virtually every hole. A great example that I had happen to me…


The 15th is a true three shotter for most players. I popped up a drive maybe 130 and was left with 400yds to the green and 270 to the preferred layup. I was playing great and made one poor swing but had a real chance of breaking 80 with a few holes to go. I decided to just advance the ball as far as I could over the rise, picking an aiming point and accepting that there is a centerline bunker in the preferred area. I dead straight nutted a monster 3wood perhaps 270. I found my ball in the rough bordering the backside of the bunker, 135 from the green. Five strokes later I was down for my double and my hopes dashed. I carded an 81. Lesson learned. Dispersion wasn’t my friend and Blake and Brian’s inclusion of a key feature in a huge layup area had bitten me.

[Matt Schoolfield]

I always think of #10 at Metropolitan golf links as a really fun hole no matter where you are (Miller-Bliss, 2003). I made this graphic some time ago to describe how players, of three different distances, can all play the hole strategically. I really think this also applies to a player who finds themselves out of position.

The last time I played the hole, I bashed one off the tee straight up the blue line, but found myself just about 15 yards short of a confident carry to the hole. On the lay up, I planned to play to the second yellow dot, but ended up poorly striking the ball  and ending up short and behind it. That left a mid-iron into the green dangerously over the water, but I ended up getting to the back of the green. I celebrated the decent recovery, but I still had a scary downhill in two putt left.

By having two parallel, diagonal, semi-cross hazards, there is no prescriptive route, and players can adjust the amount of aggression they want, and players can trade off position and angles for just getting as close to the second hazard as possible for a short wedge in. I really think it's a good example of a hole where, no matter how out of position you are, you can still recover strategically.

[mike_malone]

Elevated greens are easier to approach straight on but create many interesting options once you are off line because you are coming in sideways.

[Ira Fishman]

I confess to not fully understanding the question but:


Bandon Trails 14
Royal Dornoch 2
Pasatiempo 11


seem to be good candidates.

[Simon Barrington]

Edited to be more serious...
(Surely if there are no angles that matter, there can be no positions that do either?
  )

Matt's final paragraph is in essence what James Braid first detailed in "Advanced Golf" (1908) when he described diagonal bunkering as being a superior form of hazard.
 
Braid was (as JHT) oft cited as the "inventor of the Dog-Leg" which is clearly not the case, but in the following passage (and those that follow) it is clear he could be considered as possibly the innovator of dog-leg strategic characteristics on an ostensibly straight hole (or possibly the first to write about it in such detail):

"THE DIAGONAL BUNKER

Let me now say a few words about a form of bunker that is too seldom used as an alternative to the usual straight bunker, either of the raised bank or sunk pattern, going straight across the course and intended to be carried with the tee or second shot.

This latter bunker has the disadvantage that a ball that may be off the line may be short of it, while one of the same length that is straight may find it, which is not proper justice. Besides this, it offers no temptation to a short player who feels that he cannot carry it.

The alternative bunker that I recommend catches the short and crooked ball, and gives the better chance of being let off to the ball that is short but straight, while at the same time it offers distinct temptation to the short drivers.

It is a bunker constructed on either a single or double diagonal pattern.

Everybody knows what are the distinguishing and excellent qualities of a good dog-legged hole.The player has a carry to make from the tee over a hazard that runs at an angle to the straight line to the hole, and he can choose his own length of carry.

If he can drive far and will take risks, he goes over the farthest point-straightest for the hole; and if he makes a good shot he is much nearer to the hole than he would have been if he had taken the short carry, and ought then to be given a good or even easy chance of getting on to the green in comfort with his next stroke.

On the other hand, the short driver may take an easy carry, but he will then probably be out of range of the green.

The good qualities of this type of hazard are apparent, and they may easily be applied to made bunkers at straight holes.

The bunker that has to be carried is simply placed diagonally across the course instead of straight, and it makes no difference whether it is a sunk bunker, a line of pots, or a bank. In the case of the single diagonal you place one bunker--or line of pots--at an angle of about forty-five degrees across the course, the end nearer to the tee reaching the edge of the fairway, while the other end extends just a little beyond the middle of the course.

Therefore the player who can drive well and wants to take the short cut to the hole goes for the long carry over the middle, while another man, who is a short driver or is afraid, can play over to the right or left as the case may be...

...But note that the man who does thus take the short carry is losing extra distance by departing so much from the straight line, and also that he stands a very fair chance of going into the rough if he is not careful, while the bunkers in the neighbourhood of the green will be so arranged that his next shot will be considerably more difficult than it would have been if he had kept straight.

Thus, while the short driver is quite as well accommodated as he has any right to expect, the bunker is distinctly one that encourages him and makes him try to improve his length."

[Sean_A]

I gotta believe holes which offer temptation for the recovery shot is the answer. A very simple design strategy is to place a feature which is very difficult to bounce through on the high side of a green which slopes away from play. There is an easier recovery just short of the green or maybe even on the front of the green if the recovery is executed very well. Simple yet highly effective and thought provoking for the recovery, pre and post shots.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Short grass, humps and hollows plus firm turf, the wider and firmer the better, usually results in interesting and challenging subsequent shots if a previous shot comes to rest out of position.
Atb

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