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Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #100 on: Yesterday at 06:31:29 PM »
Matt,


It would cost the average club more in time and effort to calculate the variable costs involved than the cost savings to the members affected who otherwise would pay for that time and effort in additional dues.


Yes, private clubs in the US are generally for the more wealthy, but most are actually effectively small businesses that run on thin margins. They neither have the staff nor the software to implement academic pricing models. Indeed, for most, the staff are overworked and underpaid.


Ira

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #101 on: Yesterday at 07:29:19 PM »
Matt,


It would cost the average club more in time and effort to calculate the variable costs involved than the cost savings to the members affected who otherwise would pay for that time and effort in additional dues.


Yes, private clubs in the US are generally for the more wealthy, but most are actually effectively small businesses that run on thin margins. They neither have the staff nor the software to implement academic pricing models. Indeed, for most, the staff are overworked and underpaid.


Ira
Ira,

All of this is fine, and in generally I agree, but my point still stands. Even if the costs are back-of-the-envelope guesses, then the guesses are being made in an alternate pricing structure anyway. Everyone wins as the pricing closer reflects the costs, no matter how expensive of a microscope people are using, because your always less likely to end up getting the cost wrong and having to make up for it.

My point here isn't about actually breaking these costs down. It's about communicating to the members with what they are being charged for, and why they are being charged. You can see where folks like Jeff feel like they are not being treated equitably when an arbitrary fee is assessed. We can see where folks like Bernie might have different values in how the needed fees are distributed. My point is members of a club generally are going to want to be treated equitably, and in the club doing it's best to be open about it's costs (to the best of their limited ability) in assessing fees to cover those costs (according to the way the organization wants to structure itself), then your going to have more harmony and people feeling like they are getting a fair shake.

Some people might not care about this, but many will.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:31:14 PM by Matt Schoolfield »
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Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #102 on: Yesterday at 08:40:44 PM »
Matt,


It would cost the average club more in time and effort to calculate the variable costs involved than the cost savings to the members affected who otherwise would pay for that time and effort in additional dues.


Yes, private clubs in the US are generally for the more wealthy, but most are actually effectively small businesses that run on thin margins. They neither have the staff nor the software to implement academic pricing models. Indeed, for most, the staff are overworked and underpaid.


Ira
Ira,

All of this is fine, and in generally I agree, but my point still stands. Even if the costs are back-of-the-envelope guesses, then the guesses are being made in an alternate pricing structure anyway. Everyone wins as the pricing closer reflects the costs, no matter how expensive of a microscope people are using, because your always less likely to end up getting the cost wrong and having to make up for it.

My point here isn't about actually breaking these costs down. It's about communicating to the members with what they are being charged for, and why they are being charged. You can see where folks like Jeff feel like they are not being treated equitably when an arbitrary fee is assessed. We can see where folks like Bernie might have different values in how the needed fees are distributed. My point is members of a club generally are going to want to be treated equitably, and in the club doing it's best to be open about it's costs (to the best of their limited ability) in assessing fees to cover those costs (according to the way the organization wants to structure itself), then your going to have more harmony and people feeling like they are getting a fair shake.

Some people might not care about this, but many will.


Matt,
The club in Florida I’m joining charges for walking whether you use a push cart or carry your clubs. They are rare as at most clubs in Florida there is no option to walk. You get charged and are required to ride. The club charges roughly 50% of a cart fee to walk. I think it’s $15. This is not an ultra wealthy club. Pre Covid you could have walked right in. Never heard one person complain about it. There is no issue with harmony.
I’m sure the club knows how many rounds are walked each year and have factored that into their annual budgets. If you like to walk but don’t want to pay a fee. Don’t join. It’s that simple. This is a member owned club. There is no profit motive.
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #103 on: Yesterday at 08:46:02 PM »
Matt,
The club in Florida I’m joining charges for walking whether you use a push cart or carry your clubs. They are rare as at most clubs in Florida there is no option to walk. You get charged and are required to ride. The club charges roughly 50% of a cart fee to walk. I think it’s $15. This is not an ultra wealthy club. Pre Covid you could have walked right in. Never heard one person complain about it. There is no issue with harmony.
I’m sure the club knows how many rounds are walked each year and have factored that into their annual budgets. If you like to walk but don’t want to pay a fee. Don’t join. It’s that simple. This is a member owned club. There is no profit motive.
I'm not against a "per round" charge, I just think it's dumb to have an arbitrary "trail fee" to walk. In that case, just have a fee to play, and a cart fee on top of that, or have carts be included. Just don't charge a fee without the fee being for a good or service.
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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #104 on: Yesterday at 09:07:53 PM »
Matt,


I own and maintain my own golf cart yet I pay the same fee as the member who uses the carts the club pays for and maintains. I do this because I love having my own cart. How is this different than the member who pays to walk because that is what he loves?

Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #105 on: Yesterday at 09:12:08 PM »
I mean, I have no idea where you got the idea that we were taking about a push cart fee, but if that's the case, I'd say this:
From the OP:

I recently played at a friend's club which is a high end member owned club with terrific amenities and two courses and during covid many of the members began walking and using push carts including electric ones and they have decided to charge a fee to those who choose to walk as they have lost quite a bit of riding cart revenue.

And from experience where the options, as I've said twice now IIRC, are often:
- walk and carry
- take a caddie
- take a driving cart

Many clubs don't allow push carts, and of those that do, some charge a "trail fee" or a push cart fee. Just as some charge a trail fee if you own and use your own driving cart.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #106 on: Yesterday at 09:30:01 PM »
Matt,


It would cost the average club more in time and effort to calculate the variable costs involved than the cost savings to the members affected who otherwise would pay for that time and effort in additional dues.


Yes, private clubs in the US are generally for the more wealthy, but most are actually effectively small businesses that run on thin margins. They neither have the staff nor the software to implement academic pricing models. Indeed, for most, the staff are overworked and underpaid.


Ira
Ira,

All of this is fine, and in generally I agree, but my point still stands. Even if the costs are back-of-the-envelope guesses, then the guesses are being made in an alternate pricing structure anyway. Everyone wins as the pricing closer reflects the costs, no matter how expensive of a microscope people are using, because your always less likely to end up getting the cost wrong and having to make up for it.

My point here isn't about actually breaking these costs down. It's about communicating to the members with what they are being charged for, and why they are being charged. You can see where folks like Jeff feel like they are not being treated equitably when an arbitrary fee is assessed. We can see where folks like Bernie might have different values in how the needed fees are distributed. My point is members of a club generally are going to want to be treated equitably, and in the club doing it's best to be open about it's costs (to the best of their limited ability) in assessing fees to cover those costs (according to the way the organization wants to structure itself), then your going to have more harmony and people feeling like they are getting a fair shake.

Some people might not care about this, but many will.


Matt,


Are you a member of a club? If so, have you asked many fellow members what they care about? If not, how would know what they care about? People lead busy lives; theoretical pricing models tend not to be at the top of their lists.


Ira

Matt Schoolfield

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #107 on: Yesterday at 10:21:55 PM »
I own and maintain my own golf cart yet I pay the same fee as the member who uses the carts the club pays for and maintains. I do this because I love having my own cart. How is this different than the member who pays to walk because that is what he loves?
Your cart causes maintenance issues (externalities) on the course that are greater than folks who choose to walk. Your maintenance and amortization of cost of your own cart reduces the cost burden you're putting on your club. I think the charge for a owned cart should be somewhere in between.
Many clubs don't allow push carts, and of those that do, some charge a "trail fee" or a push cart fee. Just as some charge a trail fee if you own and use your own driving cart.
If "trail fee" just means "push cart fee" then, yes, it's fair enough to have a trivial push cart fee, but just call it a push cart fee.

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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Charging members to walk
« Reply #108 on: Today at 03:33:37 AM »
I am not sure why folks are bucking against cost transparency or accurate fee labels. Transparency helps a membership make decisions. And. I for one don’t really know what a trail fee is. The term makes no sense as a golf term…which makes me want more transparency about the finances. 

Ciao
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