Charging members to walk

[Erik J. Barzeski]

A healthy relationship between the club and the membership is having open and honest fee system. Rather than having a redundant "walking" fee, the club has the option of raising dues or imposing a flat fee-per-round.

Instituting a walking fee (or a trail fee) can be open and honest, and it's not necessarily redundant: the cart riders don't pay the trail fee. The walkers who carry or take a caddy don't pay the trail fee. Making it part of the dues increase means that even those who don't take a push cart will be paying some of the cost, too. There's some redundancy.

[Matt Schoolfield]

A healthy relationship between the club and the membership is having open and honest fee system. Rather than having a redundant "walking" fee, the club has the option of raising dues or imposing a flat fee-per-round.

Instituting a walking fee (or a trail fee) can be open and honest, and it's not necessarily redundant: the cart riders don't pay the trail fee. The walkers who carry or take a caddie don't pay the trail fee. Making it part of the dues increase means that even those who don't take a push cart will be paying some of the cost, too. There's some redundancy.

I fail to see how a fee for providing nothing can be anything but needlessly redundant. The point is to raise revenues, just raise the prices. I don't see what I'm missing here.

You basically have four categories of players receiving services beyond golf: caddies, carts, push carts, and various electric gadgets.  If we add a walking fee, we could instead just raise the base fee for everyone, and then lower the other fees to net even.

The only case in which I think that a walking fee would be relevant, is if, for some reason, you had a separate, lower fee for push carts, which would just incentivize people to say they are taking a push cart and not actually take one.

[Joe_Tucholski]

Everyone is just going to argue what is best for them.  If you play a lot, everything should be included.  If you don't, dues should be low and everything is based on utilization.  Walkers will argue that carts cost a lot and they shouldn't have to pay for them.  Cart users will say that carts are a fixed cost and the incremental cost is only for electricity.  Families want memberships to be for everyone, singles think each person should pay.  People under the age of 40 want a discount.  People over 60 want a discount.  People over 65 think it should be free.  Improve course conditions, but don't raise the dues!!! Well, just don't raise the dues on me...

^^^This For Sure^^^


Pinehurst definitely has fees for everything, it's a resort with a membership so they are in the business of making money.


There are 5 membership categories (Signature, Premier, Classic, Sport, Social).  Prices and what's included without additional cost is based on the category.  Everyone who wants to walk #2 without a caddie in prime season pays the $20.56 walking fee.


Top 2 membership tiers don't pay to walk the other courses.


Classic membership now pays $20.56 to walk #1-6, unless they pay into the trolley program ($600 per person or $1000 per person to use your own trolley - that needs to be club approved).  The top 2 tiers have a lower fee to use their own trolley ($400/$800)


Club trolley's are free if you are paying a walking fee under one of the above situations, otherwise they are $10.


If you want to lease a club cart it costs $2025/person or $3000 for a family.  If you have your own cart its $2025 and anyone in the family can use it.  If you want a by round rate it's $22.


The two lowest tiers pay a higher fee each time they play but cart, walking or trolley are included.


All that is a lot but honestly it does make some logical sense.


The thing that I can't wrap my head around is a social member pays more to golf in the offseason than the guest of the top 3 tiers guests.  Further a social member pays more than unaccompanied guest on some courses despite paying dues.


Keep in mind social members need to own property in the village so it makes more sense for them to just ask their neighbor to sponsor their play.


I look forward to the love for the fees.

[Mike Worth]

A healthy relationship between the club and the membership is having open and honest fee system. Rather than having a redundant "walking" fee, the club has the option of raising dues or imposing a flat fee-per-round.

Instituting a walking fee (or a trail fee) can be open and honest, and it's not necessarily redundant: the cart riders don't pay the trail fee. The walkers who carry or take a caddie don't pay the trail fee. Making it part of the dues increase means that even those who don't take a push cart will be paying some of the cost, too. There's some redundancy.

I fail to see how a fee for providing nothing can be anything but needlessly redundant. The point is to raise revenues, just raise the prices. I don't see what I'm missing here.

You basically have four categories of players receiving services beyond golf: caddies, carts, push carts, and various electric gadgets.  If we add a walking fee, we could instead just raise the base fee for everyone, and then lower the other fees to net even.

Using this logic, if I walked and carried 12 rounds a month but a fellow member, who still works and can only play 4-5 rounds per month (and also walks and carrys), would pay the same increase.


Why should the member who can only play a few times a month have to pay the same increase as one who plays more frequently?  And why should someone who uses an electric cart have to pay more for something they don’t use.


The assumption that walking/trail fees are redundant assumes such fees are already “included” as part of annual dues.  But what if they aren’t actually included? 


A usage fee is actually more equitable.


Consider, for example, the owner of an electric vehicle. They don’t pay the gas tax which funds road construction and maintenance and can be thousands of dollars a year per person.


EV drivers are paying much less to use roads than gas fueled car owners so governments are now imposing hefty registration surcharges on EV’s to make it equitable. 

[John Blain]

A healthy relationship between the club and the membership is having open and honest fee system. Rather than having a redundant "walking" fee, the club has the option of raising dues or imposing a flat fee-per-round.

Instituting a walking fee (or a trail fee) can be open and honest, and it's not necessarily redundant: the cart riders don't pay the trail fee. The walkers who carry or take a caddie don't pay the trail fee. Making it part of the dues increase means that even those who don't take a push cart will be paying some of the cost, too. There's some redundancy.

I fail to see how a fee for providing nothing can be anything but needlessly redundant. The point is to raise revenues, just raise the prices. I don't see what I'm missing here.

You basically have four categories of players receiving services beyond golf: caddies, carts, push carts, and various electric gadgets.  If we add a walking fee, we could instead just raise the base fee for everyone, and then lower the other fees to net even.

Using this logic, if I walked and carried 12 rounds a month but a fellow member, who still works and can only play 4-5 rounds per month (and also walks and carrys), would pay the same increase.


Why should the member who can only play a few times a month have to pay the same increase as one who plays more frequently?  And why should someone who uses an electric cart have to pay more for something they don’t use.


The assumption that walking/trail fees are redundant assumes such fees are already “included” as part of annual dues.  But what if they aren’t actually included? 


A usage fee is actually more equitable.


Consider, for example, the owner of an electric vehicle. They don’t pay the gas tax which funds road construction and maintenance and can be thousands of dollars a year per person.


EV drivers are paying much less to use roads than gas fueled car owners so governments are now imposing hefty registration surcharges on EV’s to make it equitable.

I always liked the options that Oak Hill CC in Rochester has for their members & guests. You can do one of the 4:


- Take a caddy
- Carry your own bag.
- Use a push cart (either your own or a club rental)
- Ride in a cart.


The only one you pay for is a riding cart and obviously a caddy.


Basically, do whatever you want. What a novel idea!

[Niall C]

I always liked the options that Oak Hill CC in Rochester has for their members & guests. You can do one of the 4:


- Take a caddy
- Carry your own bag.
- Use a push cart (either your own or a club rental)
- Ride in a cart.


The only one you pay for is a riding cart and obviously a caddy.


Basically, do whatever you want. What a novel idea!

John


That's similar to the average club in the UK with the exception of clubs providing free trolley's. There are a few clubs that do offer the use of trolleys for nothing as noted above but very few in the grand scheme of things. Also not many offer caddies or buggies as a matter of course or without arrangement but certainly buggies seem to be becoming more prevalent.


It seems to me from reading a lot of the comments on this thread that the walking fee seems to be a roundabout means of subsidising buggy use.


Niall   

[Tommy Williamsen]

I live in a resort that has a year cart fee. I can walk for free, pay a cart fee every time I use one, or purchase the yearly cart fee.

[Jeff Schley]

It does chap me and other members, but one of the clubs I belong has a $10 trail fee anytime walking, except twilight times. Seems total BS to most, but whatever. Also, no push carts manual or motorized are allowed anytime. So you either ride, walk w/ caddie, walk & carry for $10, or walk for free during twilight.

[Matt Schoolfield]

You basically have four categories of players receiving services beyond golf: caddies, carts, push carts, and various electric gadgets. If we add a walking fee, we could instead just raise the base fee for everyone, and then lower the other fees to net even.

A usage fee is actually more equitable.

This right here is my entire point. Have a usage fee, make the fee about what you're doing. If you want people to pay to play golf, make them pay to play golf. Have a "per round fee" and then tack on extra charges relating to the extra options.

Pretending that rounds of golf are free, but then having a "trail fee" that carting players don't need to play is the exact type of dishonesty I'm getting at. Just charge for the golf. Then on top of that, charge for the costs the carts impose on the club, and the push carts and caddies as well.

Again, my point is that the economics of the club should be clear to the members. If all rounds of golf is supposed to be included in the membership dues, then it shouldn't matter of if someone plays 5 times or 20. The membership dues are going to the fixed capital cost of maintaining the course. If the membership dues are not meant to cover the fixed capital cost, or the club wants to impose a disincentive to playing a lot, then just charge per round.

Just charge people for things they are consuming. Arbitrary junk fees like a "trail fee" are dishonest, because they aren't actually tied to any good or service.

[John Kavanaugh]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

[Matt Schoolfield]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd probably have the course properly rerouted or even completely redesigned to avoid this.

[Brian Finn]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd implement mandatory GPS trackers for all walkers, used in the following manner:

a. Establish for every member the average # of feet traveled over the course of 18 holes
b. Track the # of feet traveled at >5.5mph during each round
c. Charge member (b/a)*(cart fee $)

This really seems like the only equitable solution, at least for phase 1. 

Phase 2, I'd require Arccos on all irons and wedges and charge a %age of the total annual maintenance budget based on the number of shots struck from the fairway, to offset the walkers not filling divots with sand and seed.  Of course, in some parts of the country, where divots may be replaced, this would not work perfectly, so Phase 2 needs more work.  I'd probably establish a committee to determine the best way forward.

[Kalen Braley]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd implement mandatory GPS trackers for all walkers, used in the following manner:

a. Establish for every member the average # of feet traveled over the course of 18 holes
b. Track the # of feet traveled at >5.5mph during each round
c. Charge member (b/a)*(cart fee $)

This really seems like the only equitable solution, at least for phase 1. 

Phase 2, I'd require Arccos on all irons and wedges and charge a %age of the total annual maintenance budget based on the number of shots struck from the fairway, to offset the walkers not filling divots with sand and seed.  Of course, in some parts of the country, where divots may be replaced, this would not work perfectly, so Phase 2 needs more work.  I'd probably establish a committee to determine the best way forward.

Brian


Excellent idea!  This is the type of innovation we need to "prove" once and for all that cart ballers shoot better scores than walkers....and they do it in less time    [size=78%] [/size]

[Brian Finn]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd implement mandatory GPS trackers for all walkers, used in the following manner:

a. Establish for every member the average # of feet traveled over the course of 18 holes
b. Track the # of feet traveled at >5.5mph during each round
c. Charge member (b/a)*(cart fee $)

This really seems like the only equitable solution, at least for phase 1. 

Phase 2, I'd require Arccos on all irons and wedges and charge a %age of the total annual maintenance budget based on the number of shots struck from the fairway, to offset the walkers not filling divots with sand and seed.  Of course, in some parts of the country, where divots may be replaced, this would not work perfectly, so Phase 2 needs more work.  I'd probably establish a committee to determine the best way forward.

Brian

Excellent idea!  This is the type of innovation we need to "prove" once and for all that cart ballers shoot better scores than walkers....and they do it in less time   

Wait until you see my Sunday Brunch Buffet weigh station...there won't be a club in America that doesn't buy one.

[Bernie Bell]

Some people split the tab among their friends at the table; some negotiate. 

[Jeff Schley]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd implement mandatory GPS trackers for all walkers, used in the following manner:

a. Establish for every member the average # of feet traveled over the course of 18 holes
b. Track the # of feet traveled at >5.5mph during each round
c. Charge member (b/a)*(cart fee $)

This really seems like the only equitable solution, at least for phase 1. 

Phase 2, I'd require Arccos on all irons and wedges and charge a %age of the total annual maintenance budget based on the number of shots struck from the fairway, to offset the walkers not filling divots with sand and seed.  Of course, in some parts of the country, where divots may be replaced, this would not work perfectly, so Phase 2 needs more work.  I'd probably establish a committee to determine the best way forward.

Brian

Excellent idea!  This is the type of innovation we need to "prove" once and for all that cart ballers shoot better scores than walkers....and they do it in less time   

Wait until you see my Sunday Brunch Buffet weigh station...there won't be a club in America that doesn't buy one.

That's funny. But shed a tear from one of the last great American glutinous traditions, all you can eat buffets.

[Charlie Goerges]

glutinous traditions

Noice!

[Ian Mackenzie]

If a club charges a fee to walk, then I can only imagine this logical progression:


1. Hourly fee to sit in the lounge
2. Grooming fee to use the lockers
3. Private WCs for rent, communal ones at no charge.
4. Vending machines for snacks.

[John Kavanaugh]

If a club charges a fee to walk, then I can only imagine this logical progression:


1. Hourly fee to sit in the lounge
2. Grooming fee to use the lockers
3. Private WCs for rent, communal ones at no charge.
4. Vending machines for snacks.

When does a feephobiest who walks and plays out of their trunk rent a locker?

[Ira Fishman]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

JK,


You really have not posted enough recently. The humor quotient has gone way down.

[Mark Pearce]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd implement mandatory GPS trackers for all walkers, used in the following manner:

a. Establish for every member the average # of feet traveled over the course of 18 holes
b. Track the # of feet traveled at >5.5mph during each round
c. Charge member (b/a)*(cart fee $)

This really seems like the only equitable solution, at least for phase 1. 

Phase 2, I'd require Arccos on all irons and wedges and charge a %age of the total annual maintenance budget based on the number of shots struck from the fairway, to offset the walkers not filling divots with sand and seed.  Of course, in some parts of the country, where divots may be replaced, this would not work perfectly, so Phase 2 needs more work.  I'd probably establish a committee to determine the best way forward.

Brian


Excellent idea!  This is the type of innovation we need to "prove" once and for all that cart ballers shoot better scores than walkers....and they do it in less time   

You'll need years of data, though.  And an advocate willing to be needlessly rude to other posters, purely dedicated to analysing the data and their deductions from it.  They'll need to be so sure they're right that they can argue black is white.  And dedicated to selling a book, or lessons, or videos or something.


If only the site had a good candidate.

[Kalen Braley]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd implement mandatory GPS trackers for all walkers, used in the following manner:

a. Establish for every member the average # of feet traveled over the course of 18 holes
b. Track the # of feet traveled at >5.5mph during each round
c. Charge member (b/a)*(cart fee $)

This really seems like the only equitable solution, at least for phase 1. 

Phase 2, I'd require Arccos on all irons and wedges and charge a %age of the total annual maintenance budget based on the number of shots struck from the fairway, to offset the walkers not filling divots with sand and seed.  Of course, in some parts of the country, where divots may be replaced, this would not work perfectly, so Phase 2 needs more work.  I'd probably establish a committee to determine the best way forward.

Brian


Excellent idea!  This is the type of innovation we need to "prove" once and for all that cart ballers shoot better scores than walkers....and they do it in less time   

You'll need years of data, though.  And an advocate willing to be needlessly rude to other posters, purely dedicated to analysing the data and their deductions from it.  They'll need to be so sure they're right that they can argue black is white.  And dedicated to selling a book, or lessons, or videos or something.


If only the site had a good candidate.

hmmm...are you volunteering? 


PS  Actual Data and methodology with detailed analysis is optional thou.  Only need to make claims of such

[Ira Fishman]

What should be done about walkers who hitch a ride on a cart between long connections?

I'd implement mandatory GPS trackers for all walkers, used in the following manner:

a. Establish for every member the average # of feet traveled over the course of 18 holes
b. Track the # of feet traveled at >5.5mph during each round
c. Charge member (b/a)*(cart fee $)

This really seems like the only equitable solution, at least for phase 1. 

Phase 2, I'd require Arccos on all irons and wedges and charge a %age of the total annual maintenance budget based on the number of shots struck from the fairway, to offset the walkers not filling divots with sand and seed.  Of course, in some parts of the country, where divots may be replaced, this would not work perfectly, so Phase 2 needs more work.  I'd probably establish a committee to determine the best way forward.

Brian


Excellent idea!  This is the type of innovation we need to "prove" once and for all that cart ballers shoot better scores than walkers....and they do it in less time   

You'll need years of data, though.  And an advocate willing to be needlessly rude to other posters, purely dedicated to analysing the data and their deductions from it.  They'll need to be so sure they're right that they can argue black is white.  And dedicated to selling a book, or lessons, or videos or something.


If only the site had a good candidate.

Mark, hilarious and spot on.

[Matt Schoolfield]

Hey now, it's pretty easy to make jokes at others' expense. Even with a well executed joke, they're still at others' expense, which is pretty hack. I'd hope folks could make it clear that they're trying to laugh with and not laugh at.

[Carl Johnson]

Same rules for members at my private club pre-covid, covid, and post covid.


Walk and carry.  No extra charge.
Walk and use your own manual push/pull cart.  No extra charge.
Walk and use your own electric cart (e.g., Kangaroo) to carry your bag.  No extra charge.


Ride in one of the club's electric carts (buggies).  Extra charge.  We don't have a caddy program.


If you're paying dues to play at a golf club, then in my view you should be able to walk and play at no extra charge.  Silly otherwise.


Sometimes I play at a daily fee (for profit) course that charges a trail fee for golfers who use their own electric riding carts to ride and play, or you can walk and carry for the green fee only, or you can pay to ride in one of their electric carts.  Trolleys, manual or electric, are not allowed.